Capping benefits at 4 kids?

kafkathecat

lostinrates wrote: »

With no disrespect I think you are wrong when you say ''we'' have no empathy. I want those kids to gro up into a healthy economy, be able to find work and live fulfilled happy lives: that is not what we are seing right now...I want contentment, fulfilment for EVERY child in this country, really I do, I just disagree the syste we currently have (and not just benefits per child-I'm not sure it would be viable - but a socil attitude over all) is offering that. I live in a rural area adjoining the ''poorest'' area of a very rich county, and I really would be very happy to see the children born into lo income families be nutured into adults who do not have low aspiration.

Thank you lostinrates we want the same thing then and just differ on how these things can be achieved. To me it would make more sense to look to Germany and Scandinavia for ideas rather than the USA as we always unfortunately do. All the social problems we claim to want to solve by impoverishing those at the bottom are actually exacerbated by the process.
A huge reason we are in the mess we are is that the rich are now unwilling to pay their share of tax despite benefitting from living in a civilised country with an educated workforce, these are the things tax pays for. They have managed to convince many of us that it is all the fault of the poor. Structural unemployment is built into the system, it keeps wages low. IMO we should treat those less fortunate than ourselves with compassion. One day it could be us.

lostinrates

kafkathecat wrote: »

are is that the rich are now unwilling to pay their share of tax despite benefitting from living in a civilised country with an educated workforce, these are the things tax pays for.

well, I consider my household inome to be high (six figure number). DH tax rate this year is effectively 62%. Is that a fair share? For the record...we live ina lovely house we've bought ourselves, no help, neither have claimed anything though its very likely I was entitled to in the past but probably am not now (health but now I do work for myself, and am a small employer). We could afford heating this winter but then we would have had to not be employers this year. I'll be honest, I think ATM we give our fair share, and with LESStax paid it would all go directly into local services and employment....so helping our neighbours and local business. You bet I'm grteful we can afford to live nicely...but we really do make some sacrifices many others would not be prepared to and have a very strong sense of civic duty and responsibility (including fiscally)

I don't think ANYBODY wants to live in a country that treats people badly, I think most people' different ideologies ar geared towards living in a healthy, happy society...


as for america...its very easy to say they get a lot wrong, and they do (I have lived and was partially educated in the US system). But you know what they get a lot right too. People really do take pride in what they have earned and worked for. The education systm produces significant numbers of players in international playing fields and its a meritocracy. In fact, I hitate to ay it but in recent years I have met a better stanar of USgrad than UK graduate. My eldest neice ha ade the decision to go through US university system and while it will be very expensive for her (many US grads rely on debt and work and pay it back themselves) I also think it will be a great oppertunity for her. Germany in some ways isn't quite so equal as we always say (for example, my Jewish cousins haven't given back in a way their comprtiates have, being exempt fro the rquirement to do NS) I want to live in a country where people from all backgrounds have the same duties and responsibilities, and we forget that in some of the countries in northerm europe there remains a bit of a social stigma to some claimants and social behaviour. I would not want to see chilren stigmatised on one hand while supported on the other.

Marisco

Person_one wrote: »

Do you really believe that? Look at China.

I could post my stats on contraception failure again, I really should have them bookmarked considering the frequency people on here need to be reminded of them!

What about China? I'm not talking about forcibly making people have 1 child or taking money off them for more!! If it was capped (for benefit purposes) it's not actually stopping people having more than 2, it's just saying that if you do have more, then you'll get no more benefits for them. The choice is then theirs. As for contraception failure, then maybe a "belt and braces" approach might be the way to go!

Person_one

Marisco wrote: »

What about China? I'm not talking about forcibly making people have 1 child or taking money off them for more!! If it was capped (for benefit purposes) it's not actually stopping people having more than 2, it's just saying that if you do have more, then you'll get no more benefits for them. The choice is then theirs. As for contraception failure, then maybe a "belt and braces" approach might be the way to go!

Well, that's pretty much what China do...

Didn't your daughter have an accidental pregnancy?

Marisco

Person_one wrote: »

Well, that's pretty much what China do...

Didn't your daughter have an accidental pregnancy?

No, it was my granddaughter, she had a contraception faliure, (the pill) but has learnt her lesson, hence the belt and braces! But TBH I don't care who it is, family or not, if you cannot afford to keep more than 2 kids without benefits, then don't have any more.

Person_one

Marisco wrote: »

No, it was my granddaughter, she had a contraception faliure, (the pill) but has learnt her lesson, hence the belt and braces! But TBH I don't care who it is, family or not, if you cannot afford to keep more than 2 kids without benefits, then don't have any more.

Hypothetically, lets say belt and braces doesn't work (because each method still has the same failure rate so sometimes, statistically, they will fail at the same time!) and resulted in another great-grandchid for you. How would you feel if that child was deemed 'surplus', and not worthy of spending public money on to see it educated, fed and clothed?

Its always worth imagining this kind of thing happening to the people you love, because, well, it can! The people it happens to are all somebody's daughter, sister, grandchild, best friend etc. They aren't a separate species completely unconnected to 'normal' people like 'us'.

This is the government's plan, they want to convince you that the country's ills are the fault of those at the bottom of the pile. They want to villify them, they want you to see them as 'other', as 'lesser', as contemptible and not worthy of the kind of rights and treatment good people like 'us' expect.

That way when you find yourself signing on and asking for a little more help please nobody will listen, you're one of 'them' now, and you colluded in doing this to yourself.

Marisco

Person_one wrote: »

Hypothetically, lets say belt and braces doesn't work (because each method still has the same failure rate so sometimes, statistically, they will fail at the same time!) and resulted in another great-grandchid for you. How would you feel if that child was deemed 'surplus', and not worthy of spending public money on to see it educated, fed and clothed?

Its always worth imagining this kind of thing happening to the people you love, because, well, it can! The people it happens to are all somebody's daughter, sister, grandchild, best friend etc. They aren't a separate species completely unconnected to 'normal' people like 'us'.

This is the government's plan, they want to convince you that the country's ills are the fault of those at the bottom of the pile. They want to villify them, they want you to see them as 'other', as 'lesser', as contemptible and not worthy of the kind of rights and treatment good people like 'us' expect.

That way when you find yourself signing on and asking for a little more help please nobody will listen, you're one of 'them' now, and you colluded in doing this to yourself.

You are of course, assuming I don't have a mind of my own, and listen and follow the government propaganda machine. Nothing could be further from the truth! I don't consider them "lesser" in the least, I just don't see why someone who can barely afford the kids they have, feel the need to have any more, when they know dammed well they cannot afford it!

That has nowt to do with the gov, that is my personal opinion, in fact I don't see why anyone wants more than 2 anyway! We have an overpopulation problem as it is, resources are fast running out, or is that government propaganda as well? That goes for my family as well, otherwise I'd be a hypocrite if I said it was wrong for others and ok for mine!! I'd hope they would have more sense than to have more kids than they could afford to keep!

kafkathecat

lostinrates wrote: »

well, I consider my household inome to be high (six figure number). DH tax rate this year is effectively 62%. Is that a fair share? For the record...we live ina lovely house we've bought ourselves, no help, neither have claimed anything though its very likely I was entitled to in the past but probably am not now (health but now I do work for myself, and am a small employer). We could afford heating this winter but then we would have had to not be employers this year. I'll be honest, I think ATM we give our fair share, and with LESStax paid it would all go directly into local services and employment....so helping our neighbours and local business. You bet I'm grteful we can afford to live nicely...but we really do make some sacrifices many others would not be prepared to and have a very strong sense of civic duty and responsibility (including fiscally)

I don't think ANYBODY wants to live in a country that treats people badly, I think most people' different ideologies ar geared towards living in a healthy, happy society...


as for america...its very easy to say they get a lot wrong, and they do (I have lived and was partially educated in the US system). But you know what they get a lot right too. People really do take pride in what they have earned and worked for. The education systm produces significant numbers of players in international playing fields and its a meritocracy. In fact, I hitate to ay it but in recent years I have met a better stanar of USgrad than UK graduate. My eldest neice ha ade the decision to go through US university system and while it will be very expensive for her (many US grads rely on debt and work and pay it back themselves) I also think it will be a great oppertunity for her. Germany in some ways isn't quite so equal as we always say (for example, my Jewish cousins haven't given back in a way their comprtiates have, being exempt fro the rquirement to do NS) I want to live in a country where people from all backgrounds have the same duties and responsibilities, and we forget that in some of the countries in northerm europe there remains a bit of a social stigma to some claimants and social behaviour. I would not want to see chilren stigmatised on one hand while supported on the other.

Hi Lostinrates
I was talking about tax avoidance when I mentioned the rich not paying fair tax. There are now trillions of dollars sloshing about in tax havens. Our own chancellor is said to benefit from a trust fund. The pay of top company directors has gone up by almost 50% while the rest of us struggle or lose our jobs. The very richest in our society do not want to pay their share but they made their money thanks to the security and stability that the state brings.


Of course there is no perfect country to live in there will always be problems for some but I would choose Europe over the US every time. I don't disagree that America has worked for the majority but for a minority it is brutal. High levels of crime, imprisonment, tent cities, stagnating income levels. Even in this country a boy born in a poor family will live 7 years less than a boy from a wealthy family. And social mobility in the States and here has stalled. Working your way out of poverty is much harder than it used to be or than it is in Europe.

As I said before, I think we want the same things but just differ on how to achieve them. Owning your own company will give you a different perspective on life to my own. Unfortunately when times are hard many people look for scapegoats and the poor seem to be it for now.

Thanks for the discussion, to bring things back on topic things are looking so bleak atm. that I'm not sure why anyone would be wanting to have one child let alone more than 4. But then I am a pessimist and there are a lot of optimists about.

lostinrates

kafkathecat wrote: »

Hi Lostinrates
I was talking about tax avoidance when I mentioned the rich not paying fair tax. There are now trillions of dollars sloshing about in tax havens. Our own chancellor is said to benefit from a trust fund. The pay of top company directors has gone up by almost 50% while the rest of us struggle or lose our jobs. The very richest in our society do not want to pay their share but they made their money thanks to the security and stability that the state brings.


Of course there is no perfect country to live in there will always be problems for some but I would choose Europe over the US every time. I don't disagree that America has worked for the majority but for a minority it is brutal. High levels of crime, imprisonment, tent cities, stagnating income levels. Even in this country a boy born in a poor family will live 7 years less than a boy from a wealthy family. And social mobility in the States and here has stalled. Working your way out of poverty is much harder than it used to be or than it is in Europe.

As I said before, I think we want the same things but just differ on how to achieve them. Owning your own company will give you a different perspective on life to my own. Unfortunately when times are hard many people look for scapegoats and the poor seem to be it for now.

Thanks for the discussion, to bring things back on topic things are looking so bleak atm. that I'm not sure why anyone would be wanting to have one child let alone more than 4. But then I am a pessimist and there are a lot of optimists about.

I'd choose Europe too, I actively did! BUT the gap between richer and poorer has INCREASED under the curret benefits and avoidance system. I don't knw howmany people tax avoid, but I don't think its a ''rich persons'' thing. I feel its likely there is a untapped pool of tax in the ash economy.

I agree one hundred percent people are looking for scape goats...some point down the payscale, some point up, or at certain professions. For more effective is to say ''while popular and seemingly kind this system hasn't worked how we thought it could....lets have another look at the situation.'' Why keep doig soethig that is currently failing people...children....to be honest, I find that far less''kind'' than trying to create a better future for them.

If millions are sloshig about i tax havens...and I've lived in a couple of them too.....what can we learn from them...we need that money here, and I thig taxing people whose contributions SHOULD (I agree) be here to the poit they go elsewhere is foolish. Honestly, I'd take 30% of millions over none of it...I think it woud be better for our nations children. I have long advocated a carrot method for this: giving a new title something like ''friend of Britain'' to the wealthy who tax pay here, a label that can be put on their products...records, food products, shop fronts whatever, so that we clearly see when we are helping ur country too.

lynnexxxo

There's no way that capping benefits will save money.

The money that it would cost to implement such a system would far outweigh any potential savings.

I have four children. I work, I don't receive benefits (apart from child benefit). If I have to fall on hard times I have to pick what one of my children eats? Or what one gets new shoes?