Has anyone used the Woodmiser product for wood burning stoves?

MarvC

My previous house had a very efficient boiler (worcester bosch), per year I consumed no more than 3500 Kwh and i'm pretty neige, so it's almost 2 thirds. But depends on your boiler it must be old.
Regarding the colour therefore heat you speak of essentially my initial thoughts are I think you need a new hobby, and put down that external skin thermometer and have a drink, then I thought this sounds like witchcraft but eventually I come back to the realisation that i'm sat infront of my log burning not having to load it a third as much as I used too and there's no molten metal starring at me when I go to brush away the little ash that's there, so like it was suggested in your situation, it may not work but in mine and generally the rest of the public that don't own a "wonder stove" it might...... Just a thought

HTH

zeupater

MarvC wrote: »

My previous house had a very efficient boiler (worcester bosch), per year I consumed no more than 3500 Kwh and i'm pretty neige, so it's almost 2 thirds. But depends on your boiler it must be old.
Regarding the colour therefore heat you speak of essentially my initial thoughts are I think you need a new hobby, and put down that external skin thermometer and have a drink, then I thought this sounds like witchcraft but eventually I come back to the realisation that i'm sat infront of my log burning not having to load it a third as much as I used too and there's no molten metal starring at me when I go to brush away the little ash that's there, so like it was suggested in your situation, it may not work but in mine and generally the rest of the public that don't own a "wonder stove" it might...... Just a thought

HTH

Hi

That's pretty coincidental .... ours is an efficient WB A rated condensing boiler too .... you're not getting the cubic meters as measured at the meter mixed up with kWh of energy delivered by any chance, or getting 3500kWh/year mixed up with 3500kWh/Qtr(or per winter month) ?? .... if not you were either living in a house which was very cold, very energy efficient, very small, or had an additional form of heating to be consuming 3500kWh/Yr of gas for heating .... To help place in a different context - 3500kWh would currently convert to a gas heating cost of around £120/year, or £10/month as a DD ....

Regarding the hobby/science/witchcraft bit ... it's just something I learned at school, a very long time ago ..... I may have a decent memory, but for those who don't it's all pretty well available on the internet ... considering that you mentioned that you looked and couldn't find anything before I'm surprised that you haven't taken the opportunity to look again .... anyway just if you didn't, here's a wiki link ..(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-body_radiation) .. which actually makes quite interesting reading, especially how it's possible to estimate a temperature from a colour.

Facts are facts, science is science, supposition is unfounded and marketing is marketing .....

For yourself, keep warm - for others, always try to remember to apply logic ....

HTH
Z

MarvC

Wood Combustion

• Wood burning occurs in three main steps. First, water in the wood evaporates and vaporizes, but the heat from this process is not enough to warm a room. Once the temperature reaches 500 F, wood begins to break down and form volatile gases. The gases themselves burn at about 1,100 F, according to the University of Missouri Cooperative Extension. Once the gases are released, the leftover material, charcoal, burns at a temperatures of more than 1,100 F. Ash is the byproduct once the charcoal has completely burned.
  
  

Above 1100 Fahrenheit but not above 1900 Fahrenheit! aka 1000 Celsius that's quite a jump you're talking about
..... found at ehow

zeupater

MarvC wrote: »

Wood Combustion

• Wood burning occurs in three main steps. First, water in the wood evaporates and vaporizes, but the heat from this process is not enough to warm a room. Once the temperature reaches 500 F, wood begins to break down and form volatile gases. The gases themselves burn at about 1,100 F, according to the University of Missouri Cooperative Extension. Once the gases are released, the leftover material, charcoal, burns at a temperatures of more than 1,100 F. Ash is the byproduct once the charcoal has completely burned.
  
  

Above 1100 Fahrenheit but not above 1900 Fahrenheit! aka 1000 Celsius that's quite a jump you're talking about
..... found at ehow

Hi MarvC

Nice try .... the gases ignite and the volatiles burn away, that's why you need to burn your logs in a fire hot enough to ignite the flames ... if not the volatiles simple condense and form tar in your chimney ....

The Temperature of the flame in a wood fire is measurable by colour, as can readily be researched ... eg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire#Typical_temperatures_of_fires_and_flames)

Temperatures of flames by appearance



The temperature of flames with carbon particles emitting light can be assessed by their color:

• Red
  • Just visible: 525 °C (980 °F)
  • Dull: 700 °C (1,300 °F)
  • Cherry, dull: 800 °C (1,500 °F)
  • Cherry, full: 900 °C (1,700 °F)
  • Cherry, clear: 1,000 °C (1,800 °F)
• Orange
  • Deep: 1,100 °C (2,000 °F)
  • Clear: 1,200 °C (2,200 °F)
• White
  • Whitish: 1,300 °C (2,400 °F)
  • Bright: 1,400 °C (2,600 °F)
  • Dazzling: 1,500 °C (2,700 °F)

Regarding the temperature of the fire-bed relating to charcoal, well that's really a factor of the airflow through the firebed ... consider a charcoal forge and the temperature which can be reached through increasing the airflow ... your reference source suggests "charcoal, burns at a temperatures of more than 1,100 F" and it certainly does, but please consider the use of the word 'above', because that's why it was used, the temperature within the charcoal being variable through controlling the rate of oxidisation ...

What I often see within our fire are spots of intense white within the fire-bed this is where air is either being drawn quickly between logs or from below the fire-bed and providing an enhanced localised supply of oxygen to fuel the combustion - it doesn't happen all over and it doesn't happen all of the time, but it happens.

Marketing is still marketing and science is still science ....

HTH
Z

quadrantforce

Researching the background of this product prior to purchase, I came across this old discussion.

I do find it very amusing how dangerous a little knowledge is - and some comments on here are a great example of secondary-school chemistry and physics plus Wikipedia (that font of accurate knowledge ) misapplied to a process that's a little beyond that! Well done to the manufacturer; "never argue with an idiot, you'll always lose."

It's basically the home retail version of what industrial waste incineration plants have been doing for years to ensure complete combustion (I know, my family helped wire up most of the ones in the midlands).

So suffice to say it works, and works well. Hopefully if anyone else is Googling this, they won't be dissuaded by school-boy science whizz kids

For £15 it's worth a punt even if you are a sceptic! The science can then be in your own test, in your own home

zeupater

quadrantforce wrote: »

Researching the background of this product prior to purchase, I came across this old discussion.

I do find it very amusing how dangerous a little knowledge is - and some comments on here are a great example of secondary-school chemistry and physics plus Wikipedia (that font of accurate knowledge ) misapplied to a process that's a little beyond that! Well done to the manufacturer; "never argue with an idiot, you'll always lose."

It's basically the home retail version of what industrial waste incineration plants have been doing for years to ensure complete combustion (I know, my family helped wire up most of the ones in the midlands).

So suffice to say it works, and works well. Hopefully if anyone else is Googling this, they won't be dissuaded by school-boy science whizz kids

For £15 it's worth a punt even if you are a sceptic! The science can then be in your own test, in your own home

Hi

Excellent supposition .... now let's consider the facts .... Yes, the science was (/is still?) taught at school, which goes to show that it's not rocket science but pretty basic stuff. Then again it's also the basis of TICs and non contact thermometers, which I have over 30years experience of using, this being at a level well above secondary school education. The reference to Wikipedia was utilised because it was readily available to illustrate a point which was in contention, therefore using the article as opposed to any one of a plethora of alternative sources concerns me very little in this context as the science behind the article is readily verified. Alternatively, if you are aware that the information contained in the referenced article is incorrect or have access to new research which will counter accepted science, I'm sure that there are a number of processes which can be followed to correct both the article and re-educate the global scientific community. Above that, there are many manufacturers of instruments which use black body radiation to measure temperatures which will need help on their (obviously flawed) calibration procedures too (:D). As for efficient incineration, as previously mentioned, we don't use the product and achieve a reasonably efficient burn in a log-burner ... ie, little/no smoke and very little ash to remove ....

I understand that the 'item' could possibly work within an open fire bed through encouraging an even burn through heat distribution, but that's not the issue, as asked previously on this thread, what would the efficiency gain be in a high efficiency 'wood-burning stove' where the entire bed is in combustion already .... in the meantime, I'd rather spend my money on fuel for my log-burner than what I believe is someone else's 'get rich quick' idea which will deliver me absolutely no financial and probably totally indiscernible heat gain ....

To place into context .... for us to spend £15 on the product, it would need to provide over 800kWh additional heat from a ~3cubic metre (~2tonne) load of logs and last an entire winter season without replacement .... just to break even !

Facts are facts, science is science, supposition is unfounded and marketing is marketing .....

For yourself, keep warm - for others, always try to remember to apply logic ....

HTH
Z

silverwhistle

From my reading it would seem better to put the £15 towards a better quality splitting maul, a couple of splitting wedges or log grenades to ensure the wood is seasoned..

Quartermoon

celerity wrote: »

They claim they are backed by a study at Cambridge University which found their product saved 33% fuel.
I can find no mention of any such study on Google.
/\dam

I couldn't find that either but I did find:-

a reference for the Nottingham University study results (scroll to Environmental Technology Centre or do a Control-F find on the page for CoalMiser or FibreTech) auril.org.uk/Portals/26/UUK%20Structural%20Funds%20Seminar%20PDFs/Dan%20King%20AURIL%20July%202013%20Structural%20Funds%20Seminar%20-%20sent%20to%20AURIL.pdf

nottinghampost.com/Fibretech-s-Coalmiser-set-home-fires-burning/story-12251583-detail/story.html#ixzz30HlCcvYW

The Nottingham University link references improved performance on OPEN fires, but does not mention stoves.

The Nottingham Post (quoting a university source) "The Coalmiser employs some of the principles of an enclosed fire, acting in the same way as an adjustable vent to control the airflow." So again suggestive that the quoted 30% results are for open fires, not stoves.

This doesn't mean it won't work on stoves though, just perhaps not make as high a % rate of difference. Fibretech do say results will vary. That's not because they are 'snake-oil' salesmen, it's because with different stoves and different stove-users - results WILL vary :doh:

But then again, with regards to stoves: on several sites, this one included, those who are working it out from 'first principles' say it can't work and those who have tried it say it does. Maybe there are different types of stove users out there? Those with the in-depth knowledge of thermodynamics to run their stove at maximum efficiency and ... the rest of us?


Re: Evidence of Fibretech having industrial/collaborative links with respected Universities. Most university studies are not published on the internet - it costs money to put them up and keep them up, not to mention the intellectual property rights nightmare of publishing stuff on the web, so it's not surprising one can't Google 'results of Cambridge University study on energy efficiency for Fibretech product x'. It doesn't mean it never existed though.

a reference on Cambridge University's website (Department of Materials, Science and Metallurgy - Composites and Coatings Group) for their link to Fibretech Ltd. ccg.msm.cam.ac.uk/industrial-links/fibretech

a reference on the Oxford University's website to Fibrertech Ltd as an industrial collaborator for Hybrid Composites & Multifunctional Materials. eng.ox.ac.uk/tan/academic-collaborators