Has anyone used the Woodmiser product for wood burning stoves?

MarvC

Also can I just point out as a business man myself, their website shows that their product's results have been verified by 2 seperate Universities, both finding an increase of 30% burn time! You can't lie about this stuff! it's a little hard to argue really, it's there in black and white, and i'm pretty sure you don't get handed a Shell Springboard award for thinking up magical ideas that don't work???!!!

This rant is purely based on the fact none of you have actually tried it!

zeupater

MarvC wrote: »

Also can I just point out as a business man myself, their website shows that their product's results have been verified by 2 seperate Universities, both finding an increase of 30% burn time! You can't lie about this stuff! it's a little hard to argue really, it's there in black and white, and i'm pretty sure you don't get handed a Shell Springboard award for thinking up magical ideas that don't work???!!!

This rant is purely based on the fact none of you have actually tried it!

Hi

I think that it would be beneficial to read the references to the studies again .... (http://www.coalmiser.co.uk/PDFs/Miser%20range%20-%20test%20results%20and%20technical%20information.pdf) .... the particularly interesting 'get out' clause is ...

"Please note that whilst the fuel-Miser products have been independently tested and field tested, it is clearly impossible to test the product on every make and model of stove or fire available. Results therefore may vary depending on the efficiency and quality of engineering of the device that you use. As some high-end, precision engineered fires and stoves already operate at very good efficiency levels, it is therefore unlikely that the savings of 30% plus would be achieved."

... which suggests that the manufacturer totally supports most of what has been posted on this thread.

The referenced 'tests' have not been described, there is no detail on the methodology and no link to a published study by the independent sources. It is also apparent that the document references quite spurious sources, including a newspaper report .... the patents all seem to be related to manufacturing processes and a random selected sample check of the patents revealed that everyone checked had expired .....

Another "get out" contained within the referenced document is ....

"The average temperature of a solid fuel fire fitted with a fuel-Miser is 750oC, which is well within the working temperature of the product at 1,000oC. The material is a custom made stainless steel alloy and will not corrode, but after numerous burns the fibres may break apart and will not be as efficient. We anticipate that the product will last between 4-5 weeks depending on use. "

... what this says to me is that my log-burner, along with many/most others, is not average. When carbon burns the colour of the combustion indicates the temperature of the flame and the fuel .... the colour of our fuel in combustion and the flames it produces suggest that we would be exceeding 1000C for the majority of our main combustion period .... 'numerous burns' are not quantified in the document, nor is 'depending on use' - we burn hot & long in the winter and, considering the carefully worded text referenced, would certainly expect premature failure in the product, well inside 4-5 weeks for no/little efficiency gain.

I remain suspicious/concerned ....

HTH
Z

MarvC

Like i mentioned you don't have studies commissioned to then give this information to the public domain. I'm pretty sure BMW wouldn't divulge to the world how their latest car manges X amount of MPG, other than stating these are the figures this is briefly the technology we've used.
Granted the science isn't indepth and the website could be better but to go to that depth would probably amount to publishing the study.
They state a burn time of 500 hours or approx 4-5wks so your burning more than 16hrs/day? Thats alot of firewood! in which case you'd probably benefit from the product!!!
I've seen the results, it works and it would also seem that anyone who has tried the product says the same, the only people who seem to have negative things to say are those that haven't tried.
I don't think there's much to be concerned about for the sake of £10.99 why not check it out?

zeupater

I'm sure that if the manufacturers send a load of the product to Martin along with funding for MSE to distribute them to interested members of this site and I'm sure that we'll try them out .... it's a pretty simple marketing exercise which would cost far less than running an advertising campaign .....

We burn around 2(+) tonnes of wood in an average year, this being in a pretty efficient stove and the burn is consistantly hot, that is hot to a level which is beyond the upper temperatures mentioned in the product technical details, and the burn is typically fueled for in excess of 12 hours/day when fired-up, however the fire will typically be burning and providing significant heat for in excess of 18 hours/day ....

Did you consider the referenced patents and research their validity ? ... I tried and what I found were expired patents which described a manufacturing process for something akin to wire wool .... there was reference to aluminuim too ... all I can say about that is that aluminium quickly melts away and disappears within our ash-bed, infact, it's possible (as in it's happened) to convert glossy paper publications into melted lumps of fused and fired china ...

In conditions where the external skin temperature of a log-burner is around 450F-500F then the surface of the wood in the whole of the combustion chamber is firstly evaporating away and then igniting as the volatiles mix with the controlled airflow into the chamber ... how exactly would you, or the manufacturers consider that this could be improved upon ? .... the whole of the surface area is already combusting, therefore there's no way to increase the area in combustion with a device designed so to do ...

Reference is also made to the reduction of ash resulting from more efficient burning ... all I can say is that we only need to empty a pretty small ashtray once a week or so ... thats probably going-on towards a couple of hundred kilograms of logs converted to a couple of kilograms of fine ash ...

There's no secret to burning, it would be pretty simple to describe the burn process, the data collection and the improvements resulting from using the product ... if the product is secret then keep it secret, that's no excuse for not publishing pier reviewable data to support claims ....

HTH
Z

Microtex

Hi, we manufacture Woodmiser and Coalmiser, and i can say that firslty our patents have not expired, also our product is manufactured using stainless steal based alloy mix & works up to temperatures of 1000 degrees due to the manufacturing process used (melt Spinning) in which we cool the alloy at a rate of 1,000,000 degrees/second. No one else can use these rapid solidification techniques as again they are patented.
The problem with publishing detailed research data is when patents are disregarded in other countries that don't follow this kind of legislation and are happy to copy products.
Ps. Do NOT put wire wool into a wood burning stove - it will melt. Our product on the other hand WILL NOT.

Please keep your eye's peeled for our website updating over the next few months. We plan to use a time lapse video of our product working in a wood burning stove, so you'll be able to see first hand just how well it works.

Any questions? - we will be more than happy to answer them, please don't hesitate to contact us via the website.

zeupater

Microtex wrote: »

Hi, we manufacture Woodmiser and Coalmiser, and i can say that firslty our patents have not expired, also our product is manufactured using stainless steal based alloy mix & works up to temperatures of 1000 degrees due to the manufacturing process used (melt Spinning) in which we cool the alloy at a rate of 1,000,000 degrees/second. No one else can use these rapid solidification techniques as again they are patented.
The problem with publishing detailed research data is when patents are disregarded in other countries that don't follow this kind of legislation and are happy to copy products.
Ps. Do NOT put wire wool into a wood burning stove - it will melt. Our product on the other hand WILL NOT.

Please keep your eye's peeled for our website updating over the next few months. We plan to use a time lapse video of our product working in a wood burning stove, so you'll be able to see first hand just how well it works.

Any questions? - we will be more than happy to answer them, please don't hesitate to contact us via the website.

Hi Microtex

Welcome to the forum .....

Regarding the patent expiry issue - Patent 4930565 is one referenced on the marketing document which was just chosen & checked at random and it seems to be showing as expired, maybe the site has it wrong, if so you should take it up with the patent holder or the site .... (http://www.patentbuddy.com/Patent/4930565)

Issued date Jun 4, 1990
filing date Nov 29, 1988
serial no 07/278,016
status Expired

.... this is one at random, it is possible to check the status of the others .....

Regarding cooling .... 1000000C/second is the same as saying 1000C/1000th second .... I suppose that dropping a little fine stainless steel wire wool at 1000C into a bucket of water would achieve this level of cooling, wouldn't want to try it, but 1000000C although unachieveable within the manufacturing process, sure sounds good ....

Perhaps you could help me understand what the temperature is in the bed of my stove which normally has a bright orange colour often with intense white hotspots within after it's been burning for a while & explain how the product can technically assist in raising burn efficiency if the entire surface area of the wood in the stove is already evaporating away with the volatiles then combusting higher in the combustion chamber .... this is at maintained stove external skin temperatures of ~450F to 500F.

There must be a view on product degredation within a stove vs an open fire, perhaps it would be possible to describe whether this would effect the lifespan of the product.

A pretty simple example could be based on my own setup ... an accepted near top-end stove rated at ~70% burn efficiency which burns at high temperature, not tickover ... ~2 tonnes of seasoned logs/year costing ~£130 .... how much money would I save using the product ?, how ? and why ? ....

I don't think that most questions would revolve around the manufacturing process (simply because most would be uninterested), just the test regime and the results ...

HTH
Z

Microtex

Hi Z,

The rate at which the alloy cools is 1,000,000 degrees Celsius/second as recorded from the dendrite arm spacing shown in the microstructural evaluation. You can obviously move zero's to where you feel best, a second is more relatable to most.
In regards the internal temperature of a stove, internal temperatures were measured at between 700 – 840 Celsius (without our product) at the base of a stove fire during tests. This is well within our product optimum working temperature of up to 1000 Celsius. (It can actually sustain much higher temperatures but this would be out of the working optimum). You’re reference to external stove skin temperature seems to be in Fahrenheit, (450F-500F at 260Celsius) I would very much doubt that your stove fire would be exceeding 1000C or 1832F.
Both coal and wood suffer burn fracture behaviour, of which the product then traps the smaller fuels as this occurs and ensures complete burn through. There is a catalytic effect of slowing and preheating air at the base of the fire which can increase efficiency greatly. The even spread by the conductive material ensures all fuel is ignited and spreads this heat evenly across the fire, this also gives a very attractive even glow.
WoodMiser is predominantly for stoves and has a slightly thicker fibre than CoalMiser with different alloy mix which helps prolong the product life regarding the higher temperatures and chemical conditions associated with woodburning.
A fuel bill of £130/yr doesn’t add up. Especially when fuelling 12+hrs/day, which would not be illustrated by your quoted fuel pricing and 2 tonne estimate. Search MSE and you’ll soon find that’s well below average! In whichcase with minimal fuel requirement, and such a high efficiency stove your gain from our product may be minimal. As for the average consumer it’s around £200-£400 fuel cost & £15-£87 saving. Higher users with boilers and as primary heat source £500-£900/yr fuel cost, £120-£250 saving & If using coal even higher. The price of wood like all fuels now is going up, due to increased demand so savings will only increase over time.
Financial saving is not the only gain from using our product, potentially you are reducing your wood storage, seasoning, gathering, chopping needs by a third. Most people would also appreciate not having to constantly load the stove/fire as much!
A third less trees felled by using our product, is a positive move as the wood burning stove market grows year on year placing higher demands on seasoned quality wood which forces prices up & CoalMiser has the ability to reduce UK CO2 by 700,000 tonnes from domestic use.
We’ve had a number of fantastic testimonials from customers with stoves who’ve made great savings and can visually see the difference in their stove and in their pockets.

Thanks for your interest and I hope this helps!

zeupater

Microtex wrote: »

Hi Z,

The rate at which the alloy cools is 1,000,000 degrees Celsius/second as recorded from the dendrite arm spacing shown in the microstructural evaluation. You can obviously move zero's to where you feel best, a second is more relatable to most.
In regards the internal temperature of a stove, internal temperatures were measured at between 700 – 840 Celsius (without our product) at the base of a stove fire during tests. This is well within our product optimum working temperature of up to 1000 Celsius. (It can actually sustain much higher temperatures but this would be out of the working optimum). You’re reference to external stove skin temperature seems to be in Fahrenheit, (450F-500F at 260Celsius) I would very much doubt that your stove fire would be exceeding 1000C or 1832F.
Both coal and wood suffer burn fracture behaviour, of which the product then traps the smaller fuels as this occurs and ensures complete burn through. There is a catalytic effect of slowing and preheating air at the base of the fire which can increase efficiency greatly. The even spread by the conductive material ensures all fuel is ignited and spreads this heat evenly across the fire, this also gives a very attractive even glow.
WoodMiser is predominantly for stoves and has a slightly thicker fibre than CoalMiser with different alloy mix which helps prolong the product life regarding the higher temperatures and chemical conditions associated with woodburning.
A fuel bill of £130/yr doesn’t add up. Especially when fuelling 12+hrs/day, which would not be illustrated by your quoted fuel pricing and 2 tonne estimate. Search MSE and you’ll soon find that’s well below average! In whichcase with minimal fuel requirement, and such a high efficiency stove your gain from our product may be minimal. As for the average consumer it’s around £200-£400 fuel cost & £15-£87 saving. Higher users with boilers and as primary heat source £500-£900/yr fuel cost, £120-£250 saving & If using coal even higher. The price of wood like all fuels now is going up, due to increased demand so savings will only increase over time.
Financial saving is not the only gain from using our product, potentially you are reducing your wood storage, seasoning, gathering, chopping needs by a third. Most people would also appreciate not having to constantly load the stove/fire as much!
A third less trees felled by using our product, is a positive move as the wood burning stove market grows year on year placing higher demands on seasoned quality wood which forces prices up & CoalMiser has the ability to reduce UK CO2 by 700,000 tonnes from domestic use.
We’ve had a number of fantastic testimonials from customers with stoves who’ve made great savings and can visually see the difference in their stove and in their pockets.

Thanks for your interest and I hope this helps!

Hi

Thanks for the information ... if you don't mind I'll make a few observations ....

Firstly, I do understand both how and why 1000000C/second is/was used, it's just really that it's irrelevant to the end user of the product - the rate of cooling in no way establishes the product as being capable of withstanding significantly higher maximum temperatures than a product manufactured using an alternative process involving a different rate of cooling ...

The internal temperature of the stove being measured at 700-840C would seem to be pretty typical for that within the combustion chamber of a standard log burner, however the temperature within the fire bed will undoubtably be higher, as evidenced by the colour of the fire-bed which is combusting .... remember, the temperature of the gasses in the chamber are continually being cooled by the injection of more air ... anyway, our burner already preheats the air for combustion prior to entering the chamber which leads to higher than average combustion chamber temperatures and increased efficiencies - that's why it's certified to use in smokeless areas. As the product is in direct contact with the fuel in the fire-bed, it is surely the temperature of the fuel in combustion, not the chamber which should be referenced ....

Regardless of there being a catalytic effect as a result of utilising the product the fact remains that if the entire surface of the fuel is already in combustion, how can spreading the heat assist - where does it spread the heat to and from as the temperatures are already pretty consistent throughout the fire-bed .....

Regarding burn fracture behavoir ... I agree, parts of the logs in combustion keep breaking away, however, they simply add to the fire-bed and continue to combust, log fires actually burn better with deep ash-beds ... as stated earlier, we experience very little ash build-up within our stove and what needs to be removed is already as fine as the product literature describes, therefore the combustion process is already pretty efficient.

I can catagorically assure you that ~3cubic meters of solid wood equating to ~2tonnes costing ~£130/year is what we have been using on average for a number of years .... perhaps it has been overlooked that some have extremely well insulated, energy efficient, properties .... we also have gas heating, but should point out that, due to a comparatively mild winter, our total gas usage over the last 12 months is well below 2000kWh .... In a property with high internal thermal mass combined with high levels of insulation it isn't necessary to light the fire every day in the heating season, nor is it necessary to burn for 12Hrs every time there is a fire, it's just that that's mainly what we do .... the figures do actually stack up ....

HTH
Z

ps - Did you manage to check why the patents are described as being 'Expired' ??

MarvC

Zeu, 2000kwh gas is actually quite a lot for some one who made out they where a primary user "typically burning 12hrs/day" no wonder you only use £130 of wood! but for 2 tonnes that is still cheap, it does depend on where you live though.
Where can you find out that the colour of your fire means it's burning 1000C and above I can't seem to see anything anywhere on the t'interweb

zeupater

MarvC wrote: »

Zeu, 2000kwh gas is actually quite a lot for some one who made out they where a primary user "typically burning 12hrs/day" no wonder you only use £130 of wood! but for 2 tonnes that is still cheap, it does depend on where you live though.
Where can you find out that the colour of your fire means it's burning 1000C and above I can't seem to see anything anywhere on the t'interweb

Hi

You'll note that the gas consumption over the last 12 months was stated as being 'well below 2000kWh' which is pretty low gas consumption level by any standards ... added to this the ~2Tonnes of logs would likely provide around a further 8000kWh of heating. This describes a heating load for the last 12 months of under 10000kWh with logs definately being the primary source, providing the lion's share (>80%) of the heating. It must also be recognised that a proportion of the gas usage is not used for space heating ....

To place this in context, according to a 2011 DECC report(http://www.ofgem.gov.uk/Media/FactSheets/Documents1/domestic%20energy%20consump%20fig%20FS.pdf) the average UK domestic gas consumption is now considered to be 16500kWh/annum ...

Lastly, on this particular point, taking the gas usage over the last 12 months in context to the size of our property results in a consumption level of below 10kWh/sqm of living space .... how is this logically considered as being high ??

Regarding colour related to heat ... heated bodies emit electromagnetic radiation at a wavelength which is directly related to their temperatures. Some of this radiation is within the visible light spectrum and that's what we see in terms of the colours in a fire. Temperatures below a deep cherry red emit wavelengths in the infrared band, which isn't visible to the human eye, however the wavelength measurement of temperatures in this range can still be identified by infrared thermometers, alongside those in the visible light spectrum ..... you will probably need to research 'black body radiation', Planck, Wien etc .... all basic science which used to be covered at 'O' or 'A' level Physics, I just can't remember which ...

HTH
Z