Re: Huge bill for leaseholders - update

Alan_M_2

Invest in a dictaphone and record each conversation you have with the builder and freeholder, make it clear to them (and get this on tape) that the conversation is being recorded, either whilst in person or on the phone.

Far better than notes if the !!!!!! hits the fan.

Re the breaking into the flat, I think this falls into the category of ignorance is no defence. In so much as, the builders responsibility is to find out who owns the flat before breaking in, assuming it's the freeholders is simply not good enough. They need to have been seen to have made an effort to confirm that, a phone call to the freeholder would have sufficed. I think that's what makes this a criminal matter.

[Deleted User]

The police said that if someone breaks into your property, then its burglary. It seems that no matter for what purpose, they did break in.

I would have thought it was trespass at most, but the policewoman on the phone said that they had actually broken in. She said: Did they break in? and I said: Yes - through the front window. She asked what my position was in regard to the proprty and I said I had 125 year lease on it. She asked if I gave them permission to enter and I said: No.

And they caused damage. I said: What about the damage they caused to the interior of the property. I asked if they don't put it right to my satisfaction, is that criminal damage? She said: Yes. We ended the call with her saying that I could charge them now, but if I want to wait to see if the work is done properly on Monday, I could charge them then if its not. She said charging them now may inflame the situation, and she agreed that I would rather not if they do the right thing.

There are 5 flats in the building. Two are owned by leaseholders and the freeholder owns the other 3. He has a managing agent for his three flats. When I spoke to them they said they had no jurisdiction over the basement flat because they only managed the three owned by the freeholder. When the builder said that if I hadn't had turned up, it would have been all put back and i would have been 'none the wiser, dear' - I think he knew - he was working under direction of surveyor, freeholder and managing agent. He must have had keys for the other flats, the managing agent obviously doesn't have keys for mine.

He mentioned that he knew my tenant had moved out - I think he thought he could get away with it - but that is just speculation and tells you what sort of bullying, arrogant patronising, **** I am dealing with!

Don't you envy me?

I really appreciate the support you've all been giving me. XXX

Generali

cgw wrote:

Thanks so much for all your interest in this.

I don't know if the police could do much if an 'honest' mistake has been made, however, if the repair is not done to my satisfaction and the builder is difficult, I want to be sure that I have recourse to go back to the police if necessary, I may give the cops a ring as I have a reference number for the incident>

Breaking and entering is a criminal act and lack of knowledge is not a defence available under UK law.

missk_ensington

Alan_M wrote:

Invest in a dictaphone and record each conversation you have with the builder and freeholder, make it clear to them (and get this on tape) that the conversation is being recorded, either whilst in person or on the phone.

I'm fairly sure it is illegal to record someone without their consent, which would defeat the object. I could be wrong though

Generali

I think that only 1 party to the conversation has to give consent - most of my career (investment banking) I have spoken only on taped lines and no warning has ever been given to the people on the other end of the phone.

prudryden

Generali wrote:

I think that only 1 party to the conversation has to give consent - most of my career (investment banking) I have spoken only on taped lines and no warning has ever been given to the people on the other end of the phone.

True. Most financial firms tape all their phone calls. It certainly lets you know who is responsible for the order error.

missk_ensington

Yeah but when companies tape phone calls they say 'Please note that phoencalls are recorded for monitoring and training purposes' I dont think you're allowed to tape someone then use the evidence in court if they didnt know they were being taped.

Or maybe you're allowed to tape someone but the call but it couldnt ebe submitted as evidence in court. I know the law is a bit muddy over this, my Mums a lawyer and I vaguely remember someone lying and telling her on the phone they were lying in court, and I said 'jjust record them saying it' and I remember her saying she would have to say 'please note Im recording this conversation' otherwise it'd be useless as evidence.

prudryden

missk_ensington wrote:

Yeah but when companies tape phone calls they say 'Please note that phoencalls are recorded for monitoring and training purposes' I dont think you're allowed to tape someone then use the evidence in court if they didnt know they were being taped.

Or maybe you're allowed to tape someone but the call but it couldnt ebe submitted as evidence in court. I know the law is a bit muddy over this, my Mums a lawyer and I vaguely remember someone lying and telling her on the phone they were lying in court, and I said 'jjust record them saying it' and I remember her saying she would have to say 'please note Im recording this conversation' otherwise it'd be useless as evidence.

With financial firms, it would generally go to Arbitration, rather than a law court. The taped calls are generally only used when there is a misunderstanding of what was said. e.g. "I thought you said BUY, no I said SELL"

Alan_M_2

missk_ensington wrote:

I'm fairly sure it is illegal to record someone without their consent, which would defeat the object. I could be wrong though

I think you'll find it's not illegal to record any conversation which you are involved in, however I believe it would be inadmissible in evidence in court of the third party was unaware of the recording. Hence my comment in the original post - "Make them aware the conversation is being recorded". As long as they acknowledge that you've said that, they don't even have to agree, the choice they then have is to continue the conversation knowing it's being recorded or not to continue.

If they chose to continue they have effectively accepted the recording.

That's my interpretation, I'm no solicitor therefore E&OE

[Deleted User]

I'll keep updating with news. My tenant is actually payed up to the end of the month or rather today! I have been in touch with a charity, which is operational in the town, called The Bond Board. They are lovely people who guarntee deposits to landlords for tenants who can't raise the money straight away. They do a video inventory and hold the deposit which the landlord can claim against in the event, when the tenant leaves. The tenant maakes an arrangement to 'save' the deposit with the Bond Board at a fixed amount per week. I had given them keys to take prospective tenants to view. On Friday, they had been to the property before I got there, expecting to do an inventory and arrange to take a new tenant. When they saw the condition of the place, they assumed I had begun some building work! Back to them in a minute.

I phoned the builders today, they would have had my answerphone messages about ploice and bill for expenses.

I wanted to know progress on the repair of the damage to my flat. The woman who answered the phone said that she would phone Mark, the director as he was out on site and call me back with progress report.

While I was waiting, I gave the Bond Board a ring. They said they would happy to pop in to the flat tomorrow - as their office is nearby (and I am a 2 hour drive away!), to check on progress for me and then let me know. Isn't that nice?

When the woman from the builders called back, she said Mark had told her that the builders were in there and that they were plastering and Mark was organising decorators. I was able to tell her that my 'agent' would be popping in to check progress. She said in the repairs to the building, UPVC windows were planned, and did I want to wait for glass in the front window until the new frames went in? I said I can't as I have a tenant lined up (the bond board have someone ready). So I ended the call by asking for their email address. Then I can keep in touch that way and send expenses bill.
I will keep you posted! And I will - at the risk of double posting - post a version of this to my other kind supporters in MS Arms. It always leaves you wondering if you get involved in someone's propblem and you don't hear the result, doesn't it?