Cashback skewing proper choice via UCAS system

Oldernotwiser

2sides2everystory wrote: »

These 2012 cashbacks that have emerged very recently to coincide with the open day season are not means tested Tom.

I see your confusion with my use of "also ran" TOW. In horse-racing 1st 2nd and 3rd and sometimes 4th actually means something to committed punters with their each way tendencies.

With UCAS "firm" choice made you are gambling for a win only which means that if you make the "best" university your firm choice in any rational understanding of which university is best for you, then your other applications will be "also ran" applications and probably treated as 'non-serious/non-committed' by the universities themselves in a number of ways for a number of reasons including:

(a) because they will have been less disposed to make you a decent offer if you hadn't made them the firm choice

and/or depending whether your choice of "best" has been skewed by cashback

(b) because the ones offering cashback are the ones which otherwise might have been listed 2 or 3 in old money but are withholding cashback opportunities unless you make them your "firm" choice.

You have no idea of how the UCAS form operates!

As I said earlier, you no longer put universities in order of preference and no university knows what other choices have been made.

You choose your firm offer after you have heard from all the universities you've applied for so what you've written in no way applies.

You cannot just change the word "first" to "firm" and carry on making the same argument.

melancholly

yeah, i think a bit more reading of the UCAS system would help. i didn't give an order of preference and that was some time ago already...... best to get the facts as they were for the 2011 entry first. makes discussion easier if there is more basic understanding of how the system operates (plus it's easy to misinterpret info, as here, if there is confusion over how it works.)

kayr_2

2sides2everystory wrote: »

These 2012 cashbacks that have emerged very recently to coincide with the open day season are not means tested Tom.

I see your confusion with my use of "also ran" TOW. In horse-racing 1st 2nd and 3rd and sometimes 4th actually means something to committed punters with their each way tendencies.

With UCAS "firm" choice made you are gambling for a win only which means that if you make the "best" university your firm choice in any rational understanding of which university is best for you, then your other applications will be "also ran" applications and probably treated as 'non-serious/non-committed' by the universities themselves in a number of ways for a number of reasons including:

(a) because they will have been less disposed to make you a decent offer if you hadn't made them the firm choice

and/or depending whether your choice of "best" has been skewed by cashback

(b) because the ones offering cashback are the ones which otherwise might have been listed 2 or 3 in old money but are withholding cashback opportunities unless you make them your "firm" choice.

Well we did the open day season last cycle and I agree many offered bursaries (and guaranteed hall accommodation) if you eventually "firmed" them. Manchester was one uni which gave you these advantages if they were an insurance choice. My son was momentarily tempted by the money but chose the best course (but less lucrative) for him in the end.

The bit about being "less disposed to make you a decent offer" I don't get - they don't know who else you have applied to (although they can guess if you get your application in very early and you have predicted A*s!) and have no idea if you are thinking about making them a firm choice or not unless you specifically tell them, which you normally wouldn't. I do agree though that the money for the firm choice could influence some students which would not be ideal.

I would be interested to know which universities you have discovered are offering "£3000 cashback". I checked the Manchester course I knew about and they are only offering £500 this time round. They can't be awash with new cash if they've cut the amount!

2sides2everystory

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

You have no idea of how the UCAS form operates!

As I said earlier, you no longer put universities in order of preference and no university knows what other choices have been made.

You choose your firm offer after you have heard from all the universities you've applied for so what you've written in no way applies.

You cannot just change the word "first" to "firm" and carry on making the same argument.

Why not? Just because a university doesn't necessarily know before it makes its initial response whether it may become the firm choice, as soon as it does or does not find out, then its commitment to the student is instantly enhanced or reduced the moment they do know if they are "firm" which is long before final grades are known and any confirmed place is offered.

So the cashback is a bribe.

I have a 17 year old son to help and another one soon after - and you don't help him/them or me. It is an absolute fact that DS1's thinking has been skewed by this cashback cr*p. The universities should never have been given access to this money - they are already misusing it.

My son wants to do an engineering degree. Engineering and Maths are generally the courses offering this sort of cashback, and some sciences I think. He has half a chance of going to my old college but they are not offering cashback because they are one of the few institutions that might actually be worth top dollar tuition fees. I am in two minds whether he will fare well at my old college and it is entirely his choice, but he is weighing his chances of getting into a world class department as slim purely because of demand for places versus plumping for a respectable department elsewhere where his grades will almost certainly get him£3,000 cashback as long as he has nominated them as firm in UCAS.

If all sides were equal, DS1 should probably be making my old college his firm choice in January and going for it with his fingers crossed, but chances are he won't because he rates his chances as slim there and does not want to pass up a shot at £3,000 pa cashback and that means he must make one of the cashback colleges his firm choice.

Now stop telling me I don't understand it when you yourselves are so behind the curve that you keep using the past £1,000 for this or that against annual £3,000 tuition fees as if it remains a valid comparator for the £3,000 cashback/£9,000 tution fees malarky. Most of you have shown no gumption to go and find out what this Cashback thing is that I have been banging on about for weeks now one way or another. It looks to me like it can be found under such titles as "Excellence Scholarship" and it is both being promoted heavily to students who engage with these particular universities and is rolling behind various changeable titles so that it gathers as little moss as possible whilst they are still shaping it.

Taiko

On fees around £3000, it was cashback of £1000 effectively. On £9000 fees, it's £3000. Either way, you're still looking at a 33% figure.

Why were you not against this before if that was the case?

2sides2everystory

Taiko your command of maths is breathtaking (when you choose the numbers).

Have I or have I not made a plea to you HE insiders to stop presenting 1000/3000 as a useful comparator in the 2012 3000/9000 cashback scenario we are now faced with. It is about as useful as me referring to it as 1400/0 in my day.

It is not the slightest bit useful and if you persist I shall assume you are merely dissembling.

melancholly

2sides2everystory wrote: »

W
So the cashback is a bribe.

but offering grants to those who are academically bright isn't new. bursaries for bright students have always been there, at differing levels at different institutions

i think it's very important to be clear about what are complete changes to the HE entry system for the 2012 cohort and what are continuations. this isn't new. fine the numbers are different now, i understand that, but this isn't a fundamental sinister change.

also, quite critically, having a bursary of let's say £3K just takes us to the discussion over whether picking a course based on cost makes sense, because even at £6K a year fees, most people won't pay back the loan in full.

this entire discussion seems like a red herring. unless of course, it encourages students to see what they might be eligible for. which would be a good thing. another long post bleating on about how awful the new fees system is seems unnecessarily like more scaremongering. to quote "It is not the slightest bit useful and if you persist I shall assume you are merely dissembling."

Oldernotwiser

2sides2everystory wrote: »

I have a 17 year old son to help and another one soon after - and you don't help him/them or me. It is an absolute fact that DS1's thinking has been skewed by this cashback cr*p. The universities should never have been given access to this money - they are already misusing it.
.

Coming from someone who sees the financial aspect of going to university as the most important - that's rich!

Look a bit nearer home to account for your son's attitude.

Taiko

It's just a clear question, one which yet again you cannot answer. If you're so against an award of 33% of the fees being given now it's £9000, why were you not against the same when the fees were lower?

setmefree2

2sides2everystory wrote: »

Why not? Just because a university doesn't necessarily know before it makes its initial response whether it may become the firm choice, as soon as it does or does not find out, then its commitment to the student is instantly enhanced or reduced the moment they do know if they are "firm" which is long before final grades are known and any confirmed place is offered.

So the cashback is a bribe.

I have a 17 year old son to help and another one soon after - and you don't help him/them or me. It is an absolute fact that DS1's thinking has been skewed by this cashback cr*p. The universities should never have been given access to this money - they are already misusing it.

My son wants to do an engineering degree. Engineering and Maths are generally the courses offering this sort of cashback, and some sciences I think. He has half a chance of going to my old college but they are not offering cashback because they are one of the few institutions that might actually be worth top dollar tuition fees. I am in two minds whether he will fare well at my old college and it is entirely his choice, but he is weighing his chances of getting into a world class department as slim purely because of demand for places versus plumping for a respectable department elsewhere where his grades will almost certainly get him£3,000 cashback as long as he has nominated them as firm in UCAS.

If all sides were equal, DS1 should probably be making my old college his firm choice in January and going for it with his fingers crossed, but chances are he won't because he rates his chances as slim there and does not want to pass up a shot at £3,000 pa cashback and that means he must make one of the cashback colleges his firm choice.

Now stop telling me I don't understand it when you yourselves are so behind the curve that you keep using the past £1,000 for this or that against annual £3,000 tuition fees as if it remains a valid comparator for the £3,000 cashback/£9,000 tution fees malarky. Most of you have shown no gumption to go and find out what this Cashback thing is that I have been banging on about for weeks now one way or another. It looks to me like it can be found under such titles as "Excellence Scholarship" and it is both being promoted heavily to students who engage with these particular universities and is rolling behind various changeable titles so that it gathers as little moss as possible whilst they are still shaping it.

Hi 2sides

I haven't been following the threads you have been posting on but is your son intending to take student loans or are you intending to pay upfront?......(and yes the whole system stinks)

smf2