We'd like to remind Forumites to please avoid political debate on the Forum. This is to keep it a safe and useful space for MoneySaving discussions. Threads that are - or become - political in nature may be removed in line with the Forum’s rules. Thank you for your understanding.

mix & match planning application & permitted development?

Options
Does anyone know if you're able to "mix & match" a planning application with permitted development?

We've submitted an application to alter both the front & rear of our home. If the application is passed, does anyone know if that would supercede PD? So, for example, we are considering altering the front under the planning application, but reverting to permitted devlopment for the rear

Our architect says that it's a "grey area" - anyone have any thoughts?
"Science is a wonderful thing if one does not have to earn one's living at it" Einstein 1951
«1

Comments

  • Canucklehead
    Canucklehead Posts: 6,254 Forumite
    edited 1 November 2011 at 10:05AM
    Options
    Grimbal wrote: »
    Does anyone know if you're able to "mix & match" a planning application with permitted development?

    We've submitted an application to alter both the front & rear of our home. If the application is passed, does anyone know if that would supercede PD? So, for example, we are considering altering the front under the planning application, but reverting to permitted devlopment for the rear

    Our architect says that it's a "grey area" - anyone have any thoughts?

    Hi...have you checked out the very active BR & Planning forum over here?

    Also the Planning Portal has an ask a question facility but you need to have a customer account.

    Canucklehead
    Ask to see CIPHE (Chartered Institute of Plumbing & Heating Engineering)
  • Grimbal
    Grimbal Posts: 2,334 Forumite
    First Anniversary Combo Breaker
    edited 1 November 2011 at 10:59AM
    Options
    Thank you very much for those links - I have submitted a question to the planning portal.

    There was co-incidentally a post on the message board link that seemed to apply to us. Whilst we have applied for both rear & front alterations, we'd prefer to build to PD at the rear & use the planning approval for the front only. One of the suggestions was to apply to get approval for the entire plan, at which point you have 3 years to build. Then build to PD and, only after finishing the PD bit, do you then go onto use your planning approval for the other bit

    To me, that sounds like it would be quite a tricky thing to pull off. A planning application is surely seen in context with the building as it existed at the time of the application. Wouldn't an application that was proposed on a building that had been extended by PD differ from that which hadn't been extended?
    "Science is a wonderful thing if one does not have to earn one's living at it" Einstein 1951
  • Grimbal
    Grimbal Posts: 2,334 Forumite
    First Anniversary Combo Breaker
    Options
    andrew-b wrote: »
    If you've submitted plans already don't you have someone assigned to your case that you can discuss this with at your local planning department?

    Whether the rear extension dumbed down is now permitted development will depend just how much you also want to extend the front too and how much the house has already been extended by and the size of the plot in which it sits on.
    "
    Best bet is to discuss it with your planning department though. I would have thought you should be submitting an amendment but you need to get it from the horse's mouth at the planning dept rather than the architect.

    Yup, we do have an associated planning officer. Tricky thing is though, he's taken on board a lot of our neighbour's concerns, meaning that our original application would be refused. We're now concerned that if we submit an amendment for the rear of the property for PD development, that they'll also refuse the front alterations. i.e. we're submitting a "compromise" planning proposal to get through the front alterations in the knowledge that we won't be using the rear proposal

    We submitted an application to extend an entirely unextended detached property. We can get pretty much the ground floor under PD, but we've applied to do an upper storey extension too. The PO originally suggested that we would need to bring in one side of the extension 1.7m from that proposed. We've suggested 1m as a compromise, but, I think I would still prefer to build to PD at rear rather than lose this 1m strip

    So, situation is:
    1. we can get ground floor almost as we like it with PD. We applied for planning for the upper storey & front alterations really)
    2. looking like budget dictates that it'll be gorund floor extension only
    3. neighbours objections mean that we're not happy with planning proposal that is likely to be approved for rear portion of building
    4. so, we need to decide whether we can cherry pick bits out from the planning approval (for front) & use PD (for rear)
    "Science is a wonderful thing if one does not have to earn one's living at it" Einstein 1951
  • ormus
    ormus Posts: 42,714 Forumite
    Options
    if i needed to choose, i would always choose the PD for the front.
    then apply for any PP req for the rear. its far more likely to be approved for the rear than the front.
    neighbours objections or not.
    Get some gorm.
  • Grimbal
    Grimbal Posts: 2,334 Forumite
    First Anniversary Combo Breaker
    Options
    ormus wrote: »
    if i needed to choose, i would always choose the PD for the front.
    then apply for any PP req for the rear. its far more likely to be approved for the rear than the front.
    neighbours objections or not.

    Yup, I agree - problem is we'd like to put a pitched roof over the garage and to rebuild a horrible old metal porch - hence the requirement for PP

    To ty and explain what we want to do a little more clearly, this is what we could do on the ground floor under PD:

    houseunderPD.jpg

    gar= garage

    If we wanted to fill in the little notch top left, we'd need PP. PP for this is very likely to be refused. The PO suggested we would need to come back in 1.7m from the LHS, we have counter offerred 1m - still awaiting a decision on that. As you can see what we're asking for from the planning application is not really that much different from that which we could achieve under PD, so it's frustrating to say the least !
    "Science is a wonderful thing if one does not have to earn one's living at it" Einstein 1951
  • System
    System Posts: 178,114 Community Admin
    Photogenic Name Dropper First Post
    Options
    if you get planning permission for an extension it may mean your pd entitlement is reduced as the pd related to the original dwelling, you will need to be careful about how much the approved extension will reduce what you can build under pd
  • Grimbal
    Grimbal Posts: 2,334 Forumite
    First Anniversary Combo Breaker
    Options
    the_r_sole wrote: »
    if you get planning permission for an extension it may mean your pd entitlement is reduced as the pd related to the original dwelling, you will need to be careful about how much the approved extension will reduce what you can build under pd

    that's the thing though - we wouldn't be using the planning permission to extend out the back - just going via PD. It would be soley PP for the front, PD for the back
    "Science is a wonderful thing if one does not have to earn one's living at it" Einstein 1951
  • System
    System Posts: 178,114 Community Admin
    Photogenic Name Dropper First Post
    Options
    yes but either one will have a knock on effect on the other, if you get permission first for the front it may mean the extension at the back no longer fits pd rules, and if you build the rear extension first it may impact on what the planners will let you build at the front.
    I can't understand why you wouldn't get permission for both, as if the rear extension meets pd rules the planning department would have no reason to make you change it anyway...
  • Grimbal
    Grimbal Posts: 2,334 Forumite
    First Anniversary Combo Breaker
    edited 1 November 2011 at 8:50PM
    Options
    The requested changes to the front should not impact on our PD rights to the rear as we're not extending, just changing the front elevation. The diagram I posted earlier outlines what we cando under PD. Because we wanted to "infill" the top LHS bit, we applied for PP, in addition to applying for a 2nd storey extension to the rear, and to alter the front elevation. We're now not going to do the 2nd storey (budget) which brings us back down to single storey to rear & front alterations. The PO has said to our architect that we would need to pull in the LHS wall 1.7m, which we're not willing to do. Hence, we would like to use PD to the rear whilst still working to planning at the front

    planningvspd2.jpg
    "Science is a wonderful thing if one does not have to earn one's living at it" Einstein 1951
  • planning_officer
    Options
    There's a lot of confusion here about PD and development requiring express planning permission. Firstly, like someone says above, front extensions are not PD, unless the front of the house doesn't front a highway (front = 'principal elevation' in the PD legislation). A porch is acceptable though as PD (that's Class D of the legislation, rather than other extensions, which are Class A, if you're googling it!).

    Secondly, unless you're in Green Belt where all extensions are assessed cumulatively in relation to the original dwelling, whether you have extended to the, say, front will have no impact on any future proposal to extend to the rear, and vice versa (the only caveat to that is that the extensions can not occupy more than 50% of the plot, excluding the house, however I've yet to see a property where they have fallen foul of that criterion!). Your architect is incorrect to say this is a grey area - it is not at all. I think what he means is that he doesn't know the answer to your question!

    However, there is unfortunately a reason why the extension you have outlined is not actually PD. The extension projects beyond a side wall (the side return joining onto the garage, at the side of the house itself) and no extensions are allowed to project beyond any side wall if it is more than half the width of the original dwelling - which yours clearly is. So, under PD you can actually only extend to the rear of the main house by 4 metres in depth, and not beyond the garage. There are plenty of appeal decisions to support that view and I've refused applications (Lawful Development Certificates) myself for that reason.

    I'm also assuming that the planning officer's objection is the impact of the extension on the amenities of the neighbouring property - not sure if your diagram is to scale, or how near the boundary the extension will be, but it looks like it will project around 5 to 6 metres to the rear of the neighbour (assuming the neighbour is in line with your house), and that could very well be said to be intrusive for the neighbour. Wouldn't it be better to extend the depth of the extension elsewhere and bring it away from the neighbour's boundary, in order not to lose any floor area?
This discussion has been closed.
Meet your Ambassadors

Categories

  • All Categories
  • 344.6K Banking & Borrowing
  • 250.6K Reduce Debt & Boost Income
  • 450.4K Spending & Discounts
  • 236.8K Work, Benefits & Business
  • 610.5K Mortgages, Homes & Bills
  • 173.8K Life & Family
  • 249.5K Travel & Transport
  • 1.5M Hobbies & Leisure
  • 15.9K Discuss & Feedback
  • 15.1K Coronavirus Support Boards