Will things ever get easier for the common man?

sheffield_lad

And whats with all this capitalism has failed business? Its worked for hundreds of years, one blip and its failed lol, bit like saying Sir Alex is a failure after last weeks drubbing

Jimmy_31

wymondham wrote: »

I got fed up with fours years of no wage rise whilst the directors cars got newer and bigger whilst their weeks got shorter ... I'm now self-employed. Just really saying that if you don't like it then only one person can change it - life is too short to get bitter...

Im self employed and my directors cars are getting newer and bigger whilst their weeks get shorter.

TruckerT

I think recent events pose a greater threat to 'life as we have known it' than any other since the start of the industrial revolution, except possibly the threat of nuclear oblivion, and the risks of global warming

TruckerT

Ilya_Ilyich

howee wrote: »

And whats with all this capitalism has failed business? Its worked for hundreds of years, one blip and its failed lol, bit like saying Sir Alex is a failure after last weeks drubbing

It's not just `recent events' though. Financial crises happen all the time (yes Wikipedia but I'm tired). It has `worked' in the sense of endured but this doesn't necessarily mean it's the best system we could have. The feudal system survived for many centuries, systems of slavery survived for millennia but that doesn't mean they're necessarily good systems to have. Under capitalism there have been frequent crises where the majority of people suffered greatly. This is arguably a natural part of capitalism as we understand it. Either we live with it or progress to something better - maybe we can develop a 'tempered capitalism' where the excesses are controlled and the crises are reduced/eliminated. Or maybe we progress to a system where crises are impossible.

TruckerT points out global warming - probably not the thread for it to be discussed but this is an incredibly important issue for the future of humanity and one that capitalism (which by its nature rewards and encourages behaviour that grows individual wealth and wellbeing in the here-and-now) is patently unsuited to deal with.

TruckerT

Ilya_Ilyich wrote: »

It's not just `recent events'

Capitalism is actually quite recent - it grew out of the industrial revolution, and displaced the last knockings of Feudalism - the whole process was fuelled mostly by advances in scientific understanding and a concomitant growth in general education

Neither Capitalism nor Feudalism ever sought to define itself, or to justify its existence - it was simply 'the way things work'. Dictatorships operated in a similar way

The only serious challenger to Capitalism has been Communism, which was a theoretical construction which failed to fulful the best intentions of its promoters

But, imho, Capitalism has gone beyond it's natural limits - the days of scientific discovery and huge steps forward by gifted individuals are over - the challenge now is to control the massive forces which the last couple of hundred years have unleashed, whether they are economic, corporate, technological, or political

TruckerT

heathcote123

ruggedtoast wrote: »

Inflation surging, unemployment rising, wages frozen or cut, many people are beginning to feel the pinch. But how much more can real incomes be cut before straitened family finances are capsized by the greed and caprice of our failed economy?

An economy that benefits the few at the expense of the many? An economy that punishes innovators and hard workers, and instead places a feather bed under the f-eckless, the entitled and the privileged.

Look in any supermarket in the land, economy and value items are becoming almost permanently sold out, people are competing for offer items. Ragged thin looking pensioners push trolleys, empty of all but a few meagre items, while harassed young families load up on bare essentials and dread the checkout at the end.

The only people thriving are smug, rosy cheeked boomers, filling their baskets with premium branded Christmas goodies, and vastly over compensated and favoured professionals, drip fed fat salaries, bled from the arm of the common working man.

It is so depressing I despair of this country.

:money:

It's called the economic cycle, no need to get all dramatic.

JayBrun

Ilya_Ilyich wrote: »

It's not just `recent events' though. Financial crises happen all the time (yes Wikipedia but I'm tired). It has `worked' in the sense of endured but this doesn't necessarily mean it's the best system we could have. The feudal system survived for many centuries, systems of slavery survived for millennia but that doesn't mean they're necessarily good systems to have. Under capitalism there have been frequent crises where the majority of people suffered greatly. This is arguably a natural part of capitalism as we understand it. Either we live with it or progress to something better - maybe we can develop a 'tempered capitalism' where the excesses are controlled and the crises are reduced/eliminated. Or maybe we progress to a system where crises are impossible.

TruckerT points out global warming - probably not the thread for it to be discussed but this is an incredibly important issue for the future of humanity and one that capitalism (which by its nature rewards and encourages behaviour that grows individual wealth and wellbeing in the here-and-now) is patently unsuited to deal with.

I agree with a lot of what you say but whilst Capitalism, like Democracy, has major failings they are arguably the best systems we know and they work whereas others have failed, at times miserably.

Premiership football cropped up and with the obscene wages paid to young spoilt brats and similarly overpaid managers like Ferguson, who is deemed a success even though he seems to behave like an animal to get results, is a failing which Capitalism throws up but the problem is how to improve it with any degree of consensus.

The first step would be to recognise the failings which in itself would take some doing since I'm not convinced a majority would agree on very much at all.

heathcote123

wymondham wrote: »

I got fed up with fours years of no wage rise whilst the directors cars got newer and bigger whilst their weeks got shorter ... I'm now self-employed. Just really saying that if you don't like it then only one person can change it - life is too short to get bitter...

Thats the key. Cut out the middleman and you find your worth skyrocket.

A._Badger

Ilya_Ilyich wrote: »

Financial crises are inevitable under a capitalist system as the contradictions inherent in the system come to `boiling points'. There may not be further crises identical to what we're experiencing right now but it's a certainty that there will be further crises. Whether they will reform capitalism to be more resilient or lead to a different economic system remains to be seen.

Yes, yes, we've heard the textbook Marxism.

Sadly, his alternative led directly to the gulags and 'year zero'.

And don't even bother with the stock:' but there has never been a properly Marxist society...' We've heard that one, too.

Ilya_Ilyich

TruckerT wrote: »

Capitalism is actually quite recent - it grew out of the industrial revolution, and displaced the last knockings of Feudalism - the whole process was fuelled mostly by advances in scientific understanding and a concomitant growth in general education

Neither Capitalism nor Feudalism ever sought to define itself, or to justify its existence - it was simply 'the way things work'. Dictatorships operated in a similar way

The only serious challenger to Capitalism has been Communism, which was a theoretical construction which failed to fulful the best intentions of its promoters

But, imho, Capitalism has gone beyond it's natural limits - the days of scientific discovery and huge steps forward by gifted individuals are over - the challenge now is to control the massive forces which the last couple of hundred years have unleashed, whether they are economic, corporate, technological, or political

TruckerT

A fairly accurate analysis I'd say. I'd argue though that communism was never obtained so it's unfair to denigrate it, and that socialism has never been allowed a chance to flourish -- consider e.g. the Soviet Union which we invaded as soon as it formed and which was forced to resort to militarism and expansionism in order to defend itself against the constant threat of further invasion, or Cuba which has been under economic and military assault from the USA since it 'turned socialist', or the numerous other US- or otherwise Western-sponsored attacks on nations that elected left-wing politicians. There's a tremendous amount of very effective pro-capitalist propaganda about, which is perfectly undertandable as a capitalist system places the media in the hands of capital. The left certainly has a lot of work to do in order for their propaganda to approach the efficacy of the right. It's tough to deal with though -- a significant proportion of the workers (as demonstrated on these forums) have successfully been convinced that the problem is their fellow workers/the poor in general being too well off. While the rich grow richer and richer over time.

e:

A._Badger wrote: »

Yes, yes, we've heard the textbook Marxism.

Sadly, his alternative led directly to the gulags and 'year zero'.

And don't even bother with the stock:' but there has never been a properly Marxist society...' We've heard that one, too.

Didn't see this before I posted. I've never studied Marx so I doubt what I post is textbook. I do believe it's intellectually dishonest to imply that Marxism necessarily leads to prison camps and mass exerminations. The GULAG system was unfortunate but as a nation perpetually under siege it becomes more understandable. What is your stance on year zero then -- that a short-term bloody revolution has no place in the overthrow of a bloody oppressive regime?