Tax Credits / Step Children should my income count?

zagfles

Sixer wrote: »

I think low-wage single parents in France almost certainly pay considerably less. For them, ecoles maternelles will be entirely free. Whereas in the UK, even low-wage single parents will be paying 30% of very high (comparatively) childcare costs. When money is tight, that's significant. Also take into account that the minimum wage in France is 9 euros an hour. And that rents are MUCH cheaper.

Even though comparisons are far too open to interpretation to make any statements hold fully true, I really don't think you can argue that the UK's supposedly generous treatment of single parents through the welfare system is the main cause of the number of single parent households or the teen pregnancy rate.

But you include childcare - ie it will only applies to those who work. I understand benefits for non-working single parents in the UK are far higher than France.

In the UK a young woman under 25, out of work, living with her parents will get a trivial amount in benefits. If she has a child, she'd be able to get independant housing and a rise in cash benefits which far exceeds the costs of bringing up a child.

Then if she meets a bloke on a decent wage, who being single previously has all sorts of silly commitments like big car loan etc, and they work out how much he'd lose if they move in together, and simply can't afford it (or doesn't want to decimate his lifestyle). So she stays single. If this happened in France the bloke would see a massive cut in his tax for taking on a single parent family.

Oldernotwiser

FBaby wrote: »

I thought OP's wife worked part-time?

But the OP works full time and part time.

Marisco

zagfles wrote: »

But you include childcare - ie it will only applies to those who work. I understand benefits for non-working single parents in the UK are far higher than France.

In the UK a young woman under 25, out of work, living with her parents will get a trivial amount in benefits. If she has a child, she'd be able to get independant housing and a rise in cash benefits which far exceeds the costs of bringing up a child.

Then if she meets a bloke on a decent wage, who being single previously has all sorts of silly commitments like big car loan etc, and they work out how much he'd lose if they move in together, and simply can't afford it (or doesn't want to decimate his lifestyle). So she stays single. If this happened in France the bloke would see a massive cut in his tax for taking on a single parent family.

Yes, but surely all this should have been talked through before the man moves in? It's no use living together/getting married, and then whinging about it! Maybe some just plough ahead, and get a hell of a shock when reality kicks in!! The op seems to be complaining about paying for step children, which would lead one to the conclusion that he has already married the mother.

clearingout

MissMoneypenny wrote: »

Last year I was spoke to a lady who lived in Italy. She said that in Italy, if a daughter got pregnant, then the government said it was the responsibilty of her parents' to keep and pay for her and her child.

That report seems to suggest that countries with low welfare payments for single mothers, have the lowest number of single mothers: while those with the highest welfare payments for single mothers (UK) has the highest number of single mothers.

I don't think it's possible to really compare Italy or France with the UK. When I think of Italy, I think of a far stronger sense of community and family than we have here and I imagine (could be wrong), that it is more common for families to live together across the generations. Other European countries don't have the fail/success at life emphasized by home ownership (or lack of) and renting is common and the need to share to get by is therefore reinforced, perhaps? Religion, certainly in the case of Spain, Portugal and Italy probably also plays a part in keeping families together. On the downside, there are probably people living in abusive, or at least unsuccessful marriages as a result, and who knows how many children growing up thinking this is OK and 'normal'.

It seems we are also debating here the concept of the single mother who somehow deliberately gets pregnant for social housing and then continues to get pregnant to stay out of work, possibly having as many 'baby fathers' as there are children. In the OPs case, as is the case with all the single mothers I know (myself included), I suspect the children concerned were born within a long term relationship/marriage that broke down and the mother has gone on to form a new relationship which will hopefully stand the test of time. It is galling to me to be lumped together with long term benefit claimants, younger single mums with 3 children prior to reaching their mid-20s and to be looked down upon because of my 'single parent' status. I didn't ask to be a single mum and certainly would have done anything I could to have saved my marriage. But you can't save something when only one party wants in, can you? What gives you the right to judge me because of that?

Personally, I prefer to live in a country where there is a huge amount of freedom and tolerance of people to live the lives that they want to live. We should be proud that children don't go without (or shouldn't if their parents prioritize properly) and that we top up low wages to support this. Whether the majority of you believe it or not, the vast majority of single parents contribute to the economy as best they are able and do an amazing job in the face of not inconsiderable adversity. Before judging, you should try handling 3 children under the age of 7 on benefits/minimum wage/tax credits, whilst paying off marital debts and receiving no maintenance from the non-resident parent for a few weeks and see how it feels. Walk a mile or so in my shoes and you might just see things very differently.

Sixer

zagfles wrote: »

But you include childcare - ie it will only applies to those who work. I understand benefits for non-working single parents in the UK are far higher than France.

In the UK a young woman under 25, out of work, living with her parents will get a trivial amount in benefits. If she has a child, she'd be able to get independant housing and a rise in cash benefits which far exceeds the costs of bringing up a child.

Then if she meets a bloke on a decent wage, who being single previously has all sorts of silly commitments like big car loan etc, and they work out how much he'd lose if they move in together, and simply can't afford it (or doesn't want to decimate his lifestyle). So she stays single. If this happened in France the bloke would see a massive cut in his tax for taking on a single parent family.

I know, I agree with you in that assessing for tax by individual and welfare by household throws up all sorts of negative effects.

Also, in the eyes of the welfare system, the most important members of a household are the children in it. So, from your perspective the single mother does well. But the welfare system doesn't see it like that. It isn't so much concerned with the mother as with ensuring that all children grow up with secure housing and decent food and clothes.

I think there will be winners and losers in whichever system you adopt. But I do think our system has some glaring holes.

Sixer

FBaby wrote: »

I don't know whether you can say that a generous benefit system will overtly encourage single parenthood, but I do believe that a system that makes it more financially sound to be working will enourage single parent to return to employment. That and the stigma attached to single parenthhood. From my experience, there is more of a negative stigma attached to being on benefits in France and much less of choosing to work and put your kids to nursery/maternelle than there is in England. Yes, as a whole childcare is more widely available in France, but it doesn't mean that it is never an issue. A friend of mine is a childminder in Marseille and she has a waiting list. Parents do struggle to find decent childcare and will look into it early into their pregnancy (women don't get as many months off maternity leave as in England).

On peut discuter!

But I'd agree cultural norms and peer behaviour has as much to do with things as the welfare environment.

Sixer

clearingout wrote: »

I don't think it's possible to really compare Italy or France with the UK. When I think of Italy, I think of a far stronger sense of community and family than we have here and I imagine (could be wrong), that it is more common for families to live together across the generations. Other European countries don't have the fail/success at life emphasized by home ownership (or lack of) and renting is common and the need to share to get by is therefore reinforced, perhaps? Religion, certainly in the case of Spain, Portugal and Italy probably also plays a part in keeping families together. On the downside, there are probably people living in abusive, or at least unsuccessful marriages as a result, and who knows how many children growing up thinking this is OK and 'normal'.

This, particularly to emphasise the effect housing (both by type and by cost) has on making comparisons meaningless.

BigAunty

Sixer wrote: »

...
Also, in the eyes of the welfare system, the most important members of a household are the children in it. So, from your perspective the single mother does well. But the welfare system doesn't see it like that. It isn't so much concerned with the mother as with ensuring that all children grow up with secure housing and decent food and clothes.

.

The best way I have heard this criticised is by a journalist that said Labours war on child poverty was a missed opportunity.

The emphasis on tackling child poverty by additional benefits to the parents because of their children meant that it never actually tackled poverty.

Namely, that by targetting children, there was no policies to ensure that the best route out of household poverty was through getting the parents in employment.

MissMoneypenny

clearingout wrote: »

Other European countries don't have the fail/success at life emphasized by home ownership (or lack of) and renting is common

Those EU countries with high numbers of renters instead of owners, have far superior renting laws compared to the UK i.e Germany, France, Austria.

I'm quite happy to do my bit to campaign to raise the UK renting laws up to those countries levels.

MissMoneypenny

BigAunty wrote: »

The best way I have heard this criticised is by a journalist that said Labours war on child poverty was a missed opportunity.

The emphasis on tackling child poverty by additional benefits to the parents because of their children meant that it never actually tackled poverty.

Namely, that by targetting children, there was no policies to ensure that the best route out of household poverty was through getting the parents in employment.

True. With the tax payers now footing the bill; rents were raised; child minders charges were raised and wages were lowered. No wonder Frank Field resigned his ministerial post over the introduction of tax credits, calling them a poverty trap. Blair called them a "vote winner" and bought himself some rental properties. It wasn't "a missed opportunity" for everyone it seems.