And yet another prob with dodgy landlord!!

Riccal

Hi Guys
Had a couple of threads on here on behalf of my daughter who has sadly become involved with a dodgy landlord in South London.

She is coming to the end (19th Nov) of a 12 month AST on a one room studio for 725 including all bills which was also meant to include council tax. This was the landlord who was telling her not to worry about TV licenses etc. as he would deal with all that. We took the decision that she would apply for one as it was obvious the guy was just trying to avoid expenses and notification to authorities re the number of people living in bedsits in the house as we believe he hasnt undertaken the necessary approvals and planning (dont know for sure though).

Anyway, less than 3 weeks before she is due to move out a council tax demand drops through the letter box.

The AST under the Tenants responsibilities does include the paragraph

to perform and observe any obligation arising under the Local Government Finance Act 1992 or regulations made thereunder to pay contributions to a collective Community Charge and or Council Tax.

To me that says she is responsible for the council tax and should have been changed on the agreement on the basis of the landlord saying that he is responsible for council tax (with me so far?)

However, he has signed receipts for rent received (that was a battle in itself) which include the statement - I can also confirm that included in this rent are all bills, including council tax, electricity, water and television license.

So, homework not necessarily done by DD regarding contents of the AST but this guy is obviously a right ducker and diver and I will be having a detailed and intimate conversation with him in the near future.

She doesnt have the funds to cover this at the moment and I dont know how much luck we would have with a small claims action against him to recover these funds if I end up paying them out. On the other side of the coin I am fairly sure he has exposed himself to probs with the Inland Revenue and council regarding tax and permissions and my own thoughts are that if he continues to act in this manner then I would take great delight in furnishing whatever information the relevant authorities might find useful and drawing whoevers attention is best to this guys circumstances.

I hate a....les like this - they run over everybody and dont give a damn.

Any thoughts?

Cheers

Riccal

N79

Unfortunately, there is an order of responsibility for council tax defined by law and it states that a T must pay over the LL unless the property is a certain time of HMO.

Therefore the council's claim is with the T and your daughter will thus have to pay the tax unless the property is an HMO. She should contact the council to find out if the house would need to be licensed in the locality in which it is. If it is, then she should be able arrange for the council to pass the tax claim up the LL chain. Without the details, I have no idea which situation applies.

Whether your daughter then has a contractual claim to get the tax back from the LL depends on the content of the AST. From what you are posting, it sounds like the AST reminds your daughter that she is liable and thus there is no provision for a claim against the LL. I have to say that court action in these circumstances is bound to fail.

However, your daughter should report the LL to the local council for a potential breach of HMO regulations, HMRC, HSE if there is no gas safety certificate etc.

Riccal

Thanks N79 - thats the logic my thoughts were running on. Wish I had seen the AST when she first organised it but she wanted to do everything herself. At least I would have had the clause amended so that a small claim would have been possible. Do you think that the receipts he has signed to confirm rent paid included council tax would sway a small claim?

7 individual little studio bedsits in 1 house with their own bathrooms and kitchenettes - dont suppose that makes it a HMO does it?

Cheers

Riccal

princeofpounds

N79 has got the right idea. There is no wiggle room on council tax - as an occupier you are normally liable to pay no matter what. If someone else says they will pay for you, you are still liable.

The HMO regulations are probably the only get-out clause, if the property qualifies. For HMOs its ceases to be the occupier who is liable, and instead the landlord. Even better if classification as an HMO is what the LL is trying to avoid.

If you do have to pay, you could potentially sue in the small claims court to recover that money. It is not a clear-cut case, as there appears to be documentation both for and against your argument. The tenancy agreement is pretty clear, and if the amount collected by the landlord matches the rent on the tenancy agreement then it might be hard to claim he was taking 'extra' even if the receipt mentions it. However, if there is an extra amount involved you have a very good chance.

Enforcement might be easier than normal because one option is to put a charge on the LL's property which will hinder any remortgage or sale he tries to make, so you have a 'fall back' option if he doesn't meet the court's demands and he can't exactly disappear.

Other things to do are environmental health check, particularly if there is no gas certificate (get it booked in quickly as there may be a waiting time), HMRC if you think he is not declaring the income.

N79

Riccal wrote: »

Thanks N79 - thats the logic my thoughts were running on. Wish I had seen the AST when she first organised it but she wanted to do everything herself. At least I would have had the clause amended so that a small claim would have been possible. Do you think that the receipts he has signed to confirm rent paid included council tax would sway a small claim?

7 individual little studio bedsits in 1 house with their own bathrooms and kitchenettes - dont suppose that makes it a HMO does it?

Cheers

Riccal

Probably not as since no facilities are shared then this is just 7 flats, provided they have been properly converted.

G_M

1) Sounds like an HMO. Get her to call the council and run through the criteria for HMOs to see if it is, and if so whether it is registered (almost certainly not)
2) If it IS (or should be) and HMO, the LL is responsible for CT
3) If not the council will demand the CT off the tenant - she'll have to pay
4) she can then try to reclaim it from the LL initially by request and ultimately via the courts. Although the AST says she is responsible, the verbal agreement supported by the statement in the rent receipts might well convince the court of the initial intention of this tenancy.
5) Another option is to deduct the cost of the CT from the remaining rent but I suspect a) she is not now due to pay enough rent to cover the CT and b) the LL would/could deduct the rent not paid from the deposit
6) Finally.... some quiet threats. The LL may prefer to re-imburse her the cost of the CT tather than have HMRC informed about the rent he should be paying tax on and the council informed of the HMO he should have registered. (not to mention his mortgage lender who probobly does not know he renting)

princeofpounds

7 individual little studio bedsits in 1 house with their own bathrooms and kitchenettes - dont suppose that makes it a HMO does it?

Read this: http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.communities.gov.uk/housing/rentingandletting/privaterenting/housesmultiple/

Different councils have slightly different definitions.

I suspect that even though they appear to be self-contained flats they might not meet the building regulations to avoid HMO legislation.

Check that point.

theartfullodger

Given that he knew fine well tenant should be paying council tax then I'd suggest he was committing fraud, a criminal offence.. . Maybe drop that in as another quiet threat...

Bleedin' crooks!!

Riccal

Thanks everyone. Lesson to be learned here by DD and myself for checking things - ah well.

All not lost yet as I intend to have a long and involved conversation with this individual - so far been kept out of proceedings as my daughter doesnt want me flying off the handle at him but gloves off now. Will definitely be making it clear the different bodies I intend to inform about his activities and lets see what he has and hasnt done legally.

Riccal

G_M

Let us know how you get on. Make sure here ar 2 of you there, either DD or an independant witness.

Riccal

G_M wrote: »

Let us know how you get on. Make sure here ar 2 of you there, either DD or an independant witness.

Not 100% sure I want a witness actually lol!
I will keep you all posted on the outcome of this one. The guy is just low level and sleazy and generally grubby. Yuck

Riccal