House prices down 30-50%...why not rates?

saverbuyer

doublee wrote: »

The cost cutting was supposed to come in the proposed reform of local government forNorthern Ireland, reducing the councils from 26 to 11.
But as usuall our politicians couldnt agree! The NI executive couldnt agree on the new boundaries of the councils.

Hopefully a reduction in the block grant will move them along.

A.L.D.A

I am off the opinion that a lot more Services should be devolved to the local councils, health, schools, roads, planning etc. and that there should be local income taxes to pay for the services. ( and a reduction in National income tax)

I think there is much more inefficiency and lack of accountability in central rather than local government.

BUT!!! we all need to take a lot more interest in how exactly the council spends our money. We have to ensure utter frugality, because unless they are monitored effectively all sorts of pet schemes will creep in and with politicians there is always the temptation to be seen to be doing something by getting some finance approved for whatever community group or organisation. Basically buying votes by responding to lobby groups. If we can keep them to core services and ensure that they are run well brilliant. We also need to set high ethical expectations!

If we were to compare say Building Control with say the Planning Service I doubt if anyone in the industry would disagree that the Council Building Control Service is much better value. But at local level we could roll Building Control, Health and Safety and Planning into one along with Roads Service and the possibility of better coordination and efficiency would be considerable.

There has to be a perceived connection between what we locally pay and the services we get. If we locally want to pay less rates then we need to either accept poorer services, or less services or demand better run services (easy said). As a business rate payer I think I get a really bad deal. As a business I get what exactly? I have to pay to get the bins collected, I can't use the recycling facilities. Do I need parks, swimming pools, births and marriages, etc? So should business not be paying less and should we not be encouraging business growth to enable employees to pay for the services they want and use?

I also pay rates and do not have a vote.

saverbuyer

A.L.D.A wrote: »

I am off the opinion that a lot more Services should be devolved to the local councils, health, schools, roads, planning etc. and that there should be local income taxes to pay for the services. ( and a reduction in National income tax)

I think there is much more inefficiency and lack of accountability in central rather than local government.

BUT!!! we all need to take a lot more interest in how exactly the council spends our money. We have to ensure utter frugality, because unless they are monitored effectively all sorts of pet schemes will creep in and with politicians there is always the temptation to be seen to be doing something by getting some finance approved for whatever community group or organisation. Basically buying votes by responding to lobby groups. If we can keep them to core services and ensure that they are run well brilliant. We also need to set high ethical expectations!

If we were to compare say Building Control with say the Planning Service I doubt if anyone in the industry would disagree that the Council Building Control Service is much better value. But at local level we could roll Building Control, Health and Safety and Planning into one along with Roads Service and the possibility of better coordination and efficiency would be considerable.

There has to be a perceived connection between what we locally pay and the services we get. If we locally want to pay less rates then we need to either accept poorer services, or less services or demand better run services (easy said). As a business rate payer I think I get a really bad deal. As a business I get what exactly? I have to pay to get the bins collected, I can't use the recycling facilities. Do I need parks, swimming pools, births and marriages, etc? So should business not be paying less and should we not be encouraging business growth to enable employees to pay for the services they want and use?

I also pay rates and do not have a vote.

I’m definitely approaching this as a business rate payer as well as residential payer. I’m really not convinced that that sort of duplication of services across 16 (or 11) different councils isn’t a waste of money. Our councils are inefficient I don’t think devolving more services would be a good thing. Saying that I think that a more central approach would have to be well designed and resourced.
I guess what we definitely can agree on is that business rates in NI are a complete joke. It’s got to the stage where I see (in my area) small companies deliberating claiming vacant rates (appearing to be closed) when using the building.
Why would you not have a vote?

warmhands.coldheart

saverbuyer wrote: »

My issue is that if we got rid of all the money wasting crap and all the useless non-job we would be able to get lots of what we want. Perhaps if councils employed some private sector cost cutting we wouldn't have small business failing because they can't afford the business rates. Maybe we'd have actual functioning high streets without all those voids.

I completely agree.... Why do we have 26 Councils and 108 MLA's governing an area just Marginally bigger than the County of Yorkshire??? Go Figure..... Never mind 11 councils, I'd cut it to a max of 4 or 5.

saverbuyer

warmhands.coldheart wrote: »

I completely agree.... Why do we have 26 Councils and 108 MLA's governing an area just Marginally bigger than the County of Yorkshire??? Go Figure..... Never mind 11 councils, I'd cut it to a max of 4 or 5.

You're right. Do we really need 16 chief execs on 100k+ each, not to mention all the duplication in every department and the lost economies of scale with regards to individual council purchasing departments.

But as with all our public sector its jobs for the boys. Who cares if its day light robbery because it's not our money we're spending its some guys in the south east of England.

That's why I would just get rid of all the councils. They are a law onto themselves.

Coolhandluke

Wales has approx twice the population of N.Ireland but only approx half the number of Goverment ministers.

A.L.D.A

saverbuyer wrote: »

Why would you not have a vote?

I have business premises in council areas that I do not live in, therefore I pay rates and do not have a vote on who spends the money. That is why business rates generally are so high. We cannot help vote them out.


One of the reasons why I think many of the Services should be local is accountability. There is some possibility of me equating a really good local health service (or not) with what I pay. On a National level, not a chance, and do you seriously think the National Health Service is efficient and well run? (There are a lot of hard working staff but overall?)

Also a lot of the tasks that I outlined (and more) could be integrated at local level. At National or Regional level they become Departments and all have to communicate with each other etc etc. Suppose helps keep me in unproductive employment.

If the concept of localisation was extended to the likes of benefits it may help foster a change of attitude, as it would be less likely to be considered as coming off a broad back. People abusing the system would have a lot harder time! It may also be a lot fairer, and some who are not claiming their entitlements may actually get them as they would see the local council as more approachable. Give them their dues, generally compared to government departments they are more 'user friendly'.

Most of all it would enable local communities to decide the levels of Service and costs suitable in their area and face the consequences as businesses move or set up in more sympathetic localities.

A.L.D.A

Coolhandluke wrote: »

Wales has approx twice the population of N.Ireland but only approx half the number of Goverment ministers.

Good point.


The UK is seriously over governed. This is due to Blair's hotchpotch approach to renationalisation. Inadequate consideration given to what Central, Regional and Local government should do, coupled with reductions in the number of MPs Departments etc.

As for the NI Assembly, words fail. Deeply disappointed and disappointing.

Parisien

Am afraid guys, Stormont is only reflective of the population who voted them in there and a system agreed and maybe foisted onto the mandarins who decide how let the locals govern themselves..........

Its a not a great system.....but what else have we got or can aspire too?

You have to remember NI, as an entity, on many levels, has been a failure to date.......what lies ahead?....who knows?

I don't think in a low wage economy with relatively poor standards and poor value for money we should be paying the rates we are!

highrisklowreturn

It has been a failure because of its Catholic Minority. There. After 42 years someone had the cajones to say it.