PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING: Hello Forumites! In order to help keep the Forum a useful, safe and friendly place for our users, discussions around non-MoneySaving matters are not permitted per the Forum rules. While we understand that mentioning house prices may sometimes be relevant to a user's specific MoneySaving situation, we ask that you please avoid veering into broad, general debates about the market, the economy and politics, as these can unfortunately lead to abusive or hateful behaviour. Threads that are found to have derailed into wider discussions may be removed. Users who repeatedly disregard this may have their Forum account banned. Please also avoid posting personally identifiable information, including links to your own online property listing which may reveal your address. Thank you for your understanding.
We're aware that some users are experiencing technical issues which the team are working to resolve. See the Community Noticeboard for more info. Thank you for your patience.
📨 Have you signed up to the Forum's new Email Digest yet? Get a selection of trending threads sent straight to your inbox daily, weekly or monthly!

What Happens after a year - 'Rental'

Options
1246

Comments

  • BobProperty
    BobProperty Posts: 3,245 Forumite
    1,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    Looked into this a bit more and stand by my original comment. The law says notice has to be given during the tenancy, IMHO. Which would make sense as you can hardly give notice to terminate a contract when the contract itself hasn't started. So the tenancy needs to have started for the S21 to be valid. I would argue that if the tenancy is signed and dated and then the S21 is given to the tenant, even if only in the next few minutes, then the tenancy exists at that point, so the "during" is valid. That is assuming you are not future dating the tenancy agreement.
    A house isn't a home without a cat.
    Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others.
    I have writer's block - I can't begin to tell you about it.
    You told me again you preferred handsome men but for me you would make an exception.
    It's a recession when your neighbour loses his job; it's a depression when you lose yours.
  • franklee
    franklee Posts: 3,867 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Photogenic
    Kuztardd wrote:
    Oh pooh!!!!

    I've just managed to have a look at the paperwork with our flat.. and there is one piece of paper alongside the contract that IS the Section 21.

    We would have signed it at the same time as getting the contract, the day that we moved in.

    Time to phone the LA and smile nicely, and see if they will do a month by month rental, and also see if they will charge a vast amount to renew a contract :-(

    Any words of advice that I may use to try and make the LA be nice and play ball?

    Oh bad luck :(

    First make sure the S21 is valid. 1. Check it was given to you after the tenancy started (after you signed the AST and were given the keys). 2. Check the expiry date. It should be after the end of your fixed term.

    Then explain to the agent you want a periodic tenancy. If they won't agree and if you really are buying in April then you may get away with not signing a new contract and just staying put as it takes a little time to get you out if you don't go. Alternatively you could sign for another six months but ask the agent to waive any renewal charge. Don't forget they are getting a percentage of the monthly rent and renewals don't cost them much to do so it is worth asking.

    The thing about issuing precautionary S21s as a mater of routine at the start of the tenancy regardless of if the landlord wants you to leave or not is that tenants get used to ignoring S21s. Once you look into it there isn't much downside to ignoring them (for a few weeks - you will have to go eventually) and if you don't sign a new contract the expired S21 means you can leave any time after the expiry without giving notice - quite useful if buying a house! There's more on this on landlordzone - if you are interested then search for Sword of Damocles which is what they have nicknamed the serving of precautionary S21's at the start of the tenancy.
  • franklee
    franklee Posts: 3,867 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Photogenic
    PS. If the agent agrees to your remaining on a periodic tenancy then you really need that in writing so that you have proof you have been given permission to ignore the S21.

    If they won't agree to periodic and offer you another fixed term but you don't want to take it, ask them to put the offer in writing before you reject it. Say something like "can you put that offer in writing and give me a little time to think it over..." That written offer should be enough to invalidate the S21.
  • BobProperty
    BobProperty Posts: 3,245 Forumite
    1,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    Kuztardd wrote:
    .....I've just managed to have a look at the paperwork with our flat.. and there is one piece of paper alongside the contract that IS the Section 21.

    We would have signed it at the same time as getting the contract, the day that we moved in......
    Maybe the landlord went on the same training course as me, then? :confused:
    franklee wrote:
    PS. If the agent agrees to your remaining on a periodic tenancy then you really need that in writing so that you have proof you have been given permission to ignore the S21.
    The whole point of issuing the S21 at the start is that it is done and you only need to do it once. If the tenancy goes periodic, I don't think you need to issue another S21 and a letter off the landlord saying it's gone periodic does not change the fact that the S21 has been issued. ( IIRC and so long as it hasn't changed since I was on a training course )
    franklee wrote:
    If they won't agree to periodic and offer you another fixed term but you don't want to take it, ask them to put the offer in writing before you reject it. Say something like "can you put that offer in writing and give me a little time to think it over..." That written offer should be enough to invalidate the S21.
    If you don't take the new tenancy agreement (which I think would require a new S21 ) then you are on a periodic. I can't see that just being offered a new agreement invalidates an S21 unless you take up the agreement. One advantage of the changes in the law which brought this in was that you knew were you stood with whatever type of agreement you had and as a generalisation for private domestic tenants, you had a fixed term AST or a periodic AST, end of.
    A house isn't a home without a cat.
    Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others.
    I have writer's block - I can't begin to tell you about it.
    You told me again you preferred handsome men but for me you would make an exception.
    It's a recession when your neighbour loses his job; it's a depression when you lose yours.
  • prudryden
    prudryden Posts: 2,075 Forumite
    Speak to your LL. He probably is happy for you to stay. He will expect you to give him a month's notice, so he can begin the process of finding another tenant.
    If he wants you to move, he will give you two months notice as per the original contract. He will hope that will give you enough time to sort out other arrangements.

    Is there any reason why you think he may want you to move out?

    If you are keen to breach your contract, then you can do that as well as anyone. Just be aware of possible consequences in the future. E.Q. Bad references, bad credit report, on the EA blacklist, and possible CCJ. You won't go to jail, but could end up with additional expenses.
    FREEDOM IS NOT FREE
  • BobProperty
    BobProperty Posts: 3,245 Forumite
    1,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    Kuztardd wrote:
    .....The tenancy agreement says:
    from and including 30th march 2006 to 29 march 2007
    and the section 21 says:
    date of expiry, after 29/03/2007..

    So could this be an error on their part as it is not after the fixed term? it is the same date!.....
    No I think that's right. If the dates are wrong will someone please correct me. One important thing about an S21 is you have to give 2 months notice. The law does not specify when though, consequently landlords issue it at the start of the tenancy. The tenant can't deny receiving it and the 2 months period is taken care of. That's why it's done that way.
    Kuztardd wrote:
    .....Could we (only if for a short time) really legally just stay in the flat, ignoring anything from the LA and keep on paying rent, and refuse to move for a short period..

    maybe we are worrying over nothing, and the LA will jut agree to a periodic contract.....
    Once the fixed tenancy period ends it becomes periodic. No one needs to do anything. That is the law.
    Kuztardd wrote:
    But, I'm a bit confused as to how getting a periodic tenancy in writing may invalidate the existing S21, if we were then not to accept it? i would have thought it would only be legal is it was signed by all parties involved.
    See previous comment, you won't get "a periodic tenancy in writing" you already have one, or will have one, once the end of the fixed period expires.
    The tenancy agreement stays the same, what changes is the rules about things like the format of the S21, issue dates etc. This is not relevant in your situation as the S21 has already been issued. (unless it's invalid then the landlord has to start again with a new S21 issued in the correct manner for the situation and point in time relating to your contract - let's not go there at present, please)
    A house isn't a home without a cat.
    Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others.
    I have writer's block - I can't begin to tell you about it.
    You told me again you preferred handsome men but for me you would make an exception.
    It's a recession when your neighbour loses his job; it's a depression when you lose yours.
  • BobProperty
    BobProperty Posts: 3,245 Forumite
    1,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    Kuztardd wrote:
    ....I will try and call the LA tomorrow, and see what they say..
    Definitely call the LA. The last thing you want is the LA or landlord assuming that you are going because they had given you notice and hadn't heard from you.
    Kuztardd wrote:
    or should i wait and see if they contact me two months before our contract runs out?
    No - because they aren't going to contact you "two months before", they already have done that. Think of the notice as needing to be at least 2 months, in your case it was 12 months. So they've already issued the notice as required by law.
    A house isn't a home without a cat.
    Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others.
    I have writer's block - I can't begin to tell you about it.
    You told me again you preferred handsome men but for me you would make an exception.
    It's a recession when your neighbour loses his job; it's a depression when you lose yours.
  • franklee
    franklee Posts: 3,867 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Photogenic
    The whole point of issuing the S21 at the start is that it is done and you only need to do it once. If the tenancy goes periodic, I don't think you need to issue another S21

    Correct. The S21 remains valid if the tenancy goes periodic and the landlord says or does nothing.
    and a letter off the landlord saying it's gone periodic does not change the fact that the S21 has been issued. ( IIRC and so long as it hasn't changed since I was on a training course )

    No I didn't mean a letter off the agent or landlord saying it's gone periodic I meant a letter off the agent or landlord saying it's OK for Kuztardd to remain on a periodic tenancy. It's the OK to remain bit that matters. Basically it cancels the S21. I said:
    franklee wrote:
    If the agent agrees to your remaining on a periodic tenancy then you really need that in writing so that you have proof you have been given permission to ignore the S21.
    If you don't take the new tenancy agreement (which I think would require a new S21 ) then you are on a periodic. I can't see that just being offered a new agreement invalidates an S21 unless you take up the agreement. One advantage of the changes in the law which brought this in was that you knew were you stood with whatever type of agreement you had and as a generalisation for private domestic tenants, you had a fixed term AST or a periodic AST, end of.

    A S21 isn't conditional, you can't say to a tenant that they can remain under some terms and not others and keep the S21 valid. If you issue an S21 you are asking them to leave. Period. No ifs or buts or conditions. So yes, if you offer they can stay then you invalidate the S21. Getting it in writing is necessary so as to avoid it being one persons word against another's.
    Kuztardd wrote:
    The tenancy agreement says:
    from and including 30th march 2006 to 29 march 2007
    and the section 21 says:
    date of expiry, after 29/03/2007..

    So could this be an error on their part as it is not after the fixed term? it is the same date!

    That looks valid to me. The date of expiry is after 29/03/2007 which is correct. If the word "after" wasn't there then it would be different.
    Kuztardd wrote:
    what could the legal implications of this be? fines, jail loss of deposit, etc etc? Could we (only if for a short time) really legally just stay in the flat, ignoring anything from the LA and keep on paying rent, and refuse to move for a short period..

    As the landlord issued the S21 at the start of the tenancy he probably doesn't really want you to leave so there probably isn't a problem. But if it turns out he does want you to go then he will tell you so nicely first to avoid court action. Then if you don't go he will go to court and you will probably have to pay his fees of about 150 pounds. But if he is evicting you on a S21 issued a year ago then although the court will have to grant possession you could say you didn't realise the notice was meant as it was issued at the start of the tenancy and you may not have to pay the fees. If you keep paying rent then your deposit will not be affected. You may trash your reference from the landlord but if you are buying that won't matter.

    If the court awards possession and you still don't go then the landlord will have to go back to court to get bailiffs. This is more fees for you but I really doubt this will happen as you would have probably moved by then anyway.

    So yes you can really legally just stay in the flat only if for a short time.
    Kuztardd wrote:
    anything we do get offered, we would get in writing.

    Absolutely get any agreements reached in writing!
    Kuztardd wrote:
    But, I'm a bit confused as to how getting a periodic tenancy in writing may invalidate the existing S21, if we were then not to accept it? i would have thought it would only be legal is it was signed by all parties involved.

    I hope this is explained above. You need to get the fact that you are allowed to remain in writing. If you do not do this then the S21 is still valid and the landlord can proceed to court for possession at any time after 29/03/2007. You would accept a periodic tenancy as that is what you really want, it happens by default anyway, there is nothing to sign by all parties, you just need the S21 invalidated.

    If you remain on a periodic tenancy without the S21 having been cancelled (preferably in writing so there is proof of the cancellation) then

    a) The landlord can proceed to court for a possession hearing at any time after 29/03/07 without giving you any furthur notice as the S21 already issued WAS your notice. Possession will be granted automatically.

    b) You can up and leave at any time you like after 29/03/07 without giving notice as the S21 was the notice asking you to leave and you are simply complying. The posts saying you still need to give notice in this case are wrong!

    It's the new six months fixed term that you may not want to accept depending on where you are with the house purchase.
    Kuztardd wrote:
    oh, and further more, what could happen if we were made to take out another 6month tenancy.. but decide we HAVE to leave after only a month or two?.... :-s

    You may in the worst case be liable for the full six months rent. The procedure is you tell the agent/landlord you want to leave. Naturally an empty property would normally cause the landlord a loss of rent so he has to mitigate this loss by doing his best to find another tenant. You are liable to pay the rent until the new tenant moves in. You are also liable to pay the landlord reasonable fees to achieve this like advertising costs. Basically you have to pay to put the landlord back in the position he would be in if you'd stayed and he has to do his best to minimise this cost.
  • BobProperty
    BobProperty Posts: 3,245 Forumite
    1,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    franklee wrote:
    Correct. The S21 remains valid if the tenancy goes periodic and the landlord says or does nothing.
    ..............
    No I didn't mean a letter off the agent or landlord saying it's gone periodic I meant a letter off the agent or landlord saying it's OK for Kuztardd to remain on a periodic tenancy. It's the OK to remain bit that matters. Basically it cancels the S21..........
    A S21 isn't conditional, you can't say to a tenant that they can remain under some terms and not others and keep the S21 valid. If you issue an S21 you are asking them to leave. Period. No ifs or buts or conditions. So yes, if you offer they can stay then you invalidate the S21. Getting it in writing is necessary so as to avoid it being one persons word against another's.........
    I see the point you are making now franklee. From a landlord's point of view, so long as you don't want the tenant out now, then you just leave it. Even writing to say you agree that the tenancy has gone periodic and saying the tenancy continues on this basis could be "shooting yourself in the foot" if you want the tenant out soon. This doesn't mean to say that all landlords and LA will realise this and get it right though, there's plenty of landlords and LAs (and solicitors come to that) who don't understand the laws.
    A house isn't a home without a cat.
    Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others.
    I have writer's block - I can't begin to tell you about it.
    You told me again you preferred handsome men but for me you would make an exception.
    It's a recession when your neighbour loses his job; it's a depression when you lose yours.
  • prudryden
    prudryden Posts: 2,075 Forumite
    I see the point you are making now franklee. From a landlord's point of view, so long as you don't want the tenant out now, then you just leave it. Even writing to say you agree that the tenancy has gone periodic and saying the tenancy continues on this basis could be "shooting yourself in the foot" if you want the tenant out soon. This doesn't mean to say that all landlords and LA will realise this and get it right though, there's plenty of landlords and LAs (and solicitors come to that) who don't understand the laws.

    Bob/Frank-
    Read post #4, what do you think of that procedure?
    FREEDOM IS NOT FREE
This discussion has been closed.
Meet your Ambassadors

🚀 Getting Started

Hi new member!

Our Getting Started Guide will help you get the most out of the Forum

Categories

  • All Categories
  • 351K Banking & Borrowing
  • 253.1K Reduce Debt & Boost Income
  • 453.6K Spending & Discounts
  • 244K Work, Benefits & Business
  • 598.9K Mortgages, Homes & Bills
  • 176.9K Life & Family
  • 257.3K Travel & Transport
  • 1.5M Hobbies & Leisure
  • 16.1K Discuss & Feedback
  • 37.6K Read-Only Boards

Is this how you want to be seen?

We see you are using a default avatar. It takes only a few seconds to pick a picture.