A few work questions

KiKi

Oscar1919 wrote: »

So basically my company own me and if they say I can't do this, that or the other after work and on weekends I have to obey what they say?

Rather an OTT reply. I'm sure you you know full well that's not what SarEl's saying.

What she is saying is that if their policy or practice is to work weekends, then you are already a part of that, signed contract or not. If their policy is that you can't work for any other company whilst employed with them, then that's already part of your contract with them. It's the work stuff you have to take heed of.

Of course they don't own you, and of course they can't dictate what you do after work, if it doesn't contravene the contract that you *do* have already. But you know that, you're just angry at the moment.

DVardysShadow

I would say that if they try to force the out of hours issue too far, then they are out of order. But saying that they are out of order does not mean thta you would get much protection from an Employment Tribunal.

You need to be sure that any out of hours job does not conflict with your current job - in terms of hours, fatigue and not being in competition with your employer - or in any other way. In your position, I would be returning the contract signed, but with the offending clauses struck out and the words 'to be discussed' written in. I really don't know, but I think you would be on stronger grounds if you were dismissed for marking up the contract than you would be if you were dismissed for breaking the terms of it unsigned.

Oscar1919

KiKi wrote: »

Rather an OTT reply. I'm sure you you know full well that's not what SarEl's saying.

What she is saying is that if their policy or practice is to work weekends, then you are already a part of that, signed contract or not. If their policy is that you can't work for any other company whilst employed with them, then that's already part of your contract with them. It's the work stuff you have to take heed of.

Of course they don't own you, and of course they can't dictate what you do after work, if it doesn't contravene the contract that you *do* have already. But you know that, you're just angry at the moment.

Perhaps I was a bit OTT with SarEl, and I apologise for being so and thank her for taking the time to respond.

Thanks to you also.

I think their policy is basically for staff to be at their beck and call whenever they need them at whatever notice.

Every other member of staff apart from myself and four others are on salaries, and we have all been given the same contract to sign, only the name at the top of it is different. I'm not sure if that makes the least bit of difference but it just seems a bit of a rush job and I don't want to sign it and it to come back and bite me on the bottom later.

I'm afraid that if I have made plans with friends or family on a weekend and work require me to shoot off to London or wherever at short notice, especially when they are unwilling to do it themsleves, I won't be cancelling my plans.

KiKi

Oscar1919 wrote: »

I don't want to sign in and it to come back and bite me on the bottom later.

Whether you sign it or not won't make much difference. If you continue to work, you could be deemed to have accepted the contract by sheer fact of turning up. Your best bet is to put in writing that you do not accept the contractual terms (state which ones), and as such, do not agree with what you're being asked to do.

Are any of the T&Cs new things that you didn't know before, or that are not company policy already? If so, you have a right to challenge that, and try and negotiate a way forward. However, they don't have to agree with your challenge, and if they decide to give notice to change the contract for a good business reason, you could - potentially - find yourself out of work for refusal to work to the new T&Cs. However, it sounds like they're pretty incompetent anyway, so putting your refusal to accept certain terms in writing is your best bet.

If the contract outlines what is already company policy (ie, you're already working to all the terms anyway), then you may as well just sign it, as not signing it will have no impact other than to p*ss your managers off.

I'm afraid that if I have made plans with friends or family on a weekend and work require me to shoot off to London or wherever at short notice, especially when they are unwilling to do it themsleves, I won't be cancelling my plans.

Nor should you - unless that's part of what's required at work and your contract (which includes policy, practice and not just what's written on the actual contract) says you must.

I agree with what you're saying in principal, by the way - they sound crap. But you have to play the game, and do it the right way so that you don't end up being the one in the wrong.

KiKi

Oscar1919

KiKi wrote: »

Whether you sign it or not won't make much difference. If you continue to work, you could be deemed to have accepted the contract by sheer fact of turning up. Your best bet is to put in writing that you do not accept the contractual terms (state which ones), and as such, do not agree with what you're being asked to do.

Are any of the T&Cs new things that you didn't know before, or that are not company policy already? If so, you have a right to challenge that, and try and negotiate a way forward. However, they don't have to agree with your challenge, and if they decide to give notice to change the contract for a good business reason, you could - potentially - find yourself out of work for refusal to work to the new T&Cs. However, it sounds like they're pretty incompetent anyway, so putting your refusal to accept certain terms in writing is your best bet.

If the contract outlines what is already company policy (ie, you're already working to all the terms anyway), then you may as well just sign it, as not signing it will have no impact other than to p*ss your managers off.



Nor should you - unless that's part of what's required at work and your contract (which includes policy, practice and not just what's written on the actual contract) says you must.

I agree with what you're saying in principal, by the way - they sound crap. But you have to play the game, and do it the right way so that you don't end up being the one in the wrong.

KiKi

You've been very helpful, as has everyone else. Thanks. I've learned quite a lot about contracts just from the replies on here. I will try and set up a meeting to discuss which parts of my contract i'm unhappy with and see if they will remove them so that i'll sign it.

Parts of the contract that i'm unhappy with are;

A) It mentions place of work and as well as the site I am based at it mentions their other place of business. It's about 90 miles away. If I sign this and they tell me I have to go work in the other place, do I have to go even if it means I will be getting home later than expected?

It mentions how my salary works with regard to lieu days/time taken off for appointments etc. I'm not on a salary, as I mentioned earlier. Am I agreeing to go on a salary in future if I sign it? I work a lot of overtime to boost my low wages. If I was salaried i'd probably be on 13k a year!

C) "Your employer can make you take all or any holiday at any time, so long as they give notice." I think this is for Christmas time, when the company closes from 24th into January, but am I agreeing that if, say, March is going to be a very quiet month work-wise, but we are predicted to have a busy summer they can tell me I need to use 2 weeks of my holiday entitlement, even though I have a holiday booked in July?

D) "In the event of holiday dates clashing with other members of staff, seniority with be given priority." So if I have a day off booked and a manager decides he needs that day off too, he gets it off and I don't? Doesn't seem right.

E) "Employees are not permitted to take second jobs eg. in the evenings or on weekends without obtaining written agreement from a director." So if the overtime dries up and i'm getting £250 a week I can't take a second job to clothe my child unless the boss says so? :eek:

Does all of that sound like reasonable things to be unhappy with?

Also, how much does everyone else get for petrol per mile when using their own vehicle for company use? Ours in 32p per mile and has been the same since I started there in 2008, even though petrol prices have gone through the roof. You probably won't be shocked to learn that I have recently refused to use my own car for work purposes :A
Can they make me use my vehicle for work things? It doesn't say they can in the contract, I just wondered. And would it affect my personal car insurance if I had a crash on my way to do something for work in my own vehicle, if at all. Obviously it would be against my policy but could it be voided, as it's not insured for business use, only leisure and comuting, or however insurance companies word it.

getmore4less

So out came the contracts and I have refused to sign mine as it states I will not work in any other job while I am employed by the company. Personally I feel I should be able to do what the hell I like once I have clocked out at 5-00pm, and won't sign it.

Get them to clarify what they mean, that would preclude anyone one comitting time to anything, since that would be another job.

Cant be a scout leader on a PTA, voluteer for a charity, self employed selling stuff on ebay etc.

E) "Employees are not permitted to take second jobs eg. in the evenings or on weekends without obtaining written agreement from a director." So if the overtime dries up and i'm getting £250 a week I can't take a second job to clothe my child unless the boss says so

that is more resonable, they should not refuse anything that does not clash with work unless the hours are excessive.

C) "Your employer can make you take all or any holiday at any time, so long as they give notice." I think this is for Christmas time, when the company closes from 24th into January, but am I agreeing that if, say, March is going to be a very quiet month work-wise, but we are predicted to have a busy summer they can tell me I need to use 2 weeks of my holiday entitlement, even though I have a holiday booked in July?

They can do this now so just claifying it for you.

t0rt0ise

As has been said ad nauseam, not signing the contract makes no difference. If you work the job then you have agreed to it anyway.

As for Oscar's terms, I do know that employers can tell you when to take holidays anyway so adding it to the contract makes no difference.

Oscar1919

getmore4less wrote: »

So out came the contracts and I have refused to sign mine as it states I will not work in any other job while I am employed by the company. Personally I feel I should be able to do what the hell I like once I have clocked out at 5-00pm, and won't sign it.

Get them to clarify what they mean, that would preclude anyone one comitting time to anything, since that would be another job.

Cant be a scout leader on a PTA, voluteer for a charity, self employed selling stuff on ebay etc.

I take it to mean they don't want me to be unavailable to work for them on an evening or weekend should they require.

It's only a few times a year where i'm required outside of 9-5, mon-fri. Either that or the contract is aimed at the office staff as they could work for a rival company in the same line of work and share info with them or whatever.

Before I worked at this place I was unemployed for a fair few months following redundancy, and I used that money towards training/learning a trade with an aim to become self employed. It was more of a last resort but it's handy to know I could go do that should the overtime dry up and money becomes tight.

KiKi

Oscar1919 wrote: »

A) It mentions place of work and as well as the site I am based at it mentions their other place of business. It's about 90 miles away. If I sign this and they tell me I have to go work in the other place, do I have to go even if it means I will be getting home later than expected?

Yes - although I suspect they could do this now. It isn't unreasonable to expect any employee to go to other sites as required, and you probably couldn't get around that even without this specific term. I guess it depends on the phrasing and if it refers to you working at this other site full time, or just needing to go there sometimes (the latter isn't unreasonable, the former is possibly unreasonable).

It mentions how my salary works with regard to lieu days/time taken off for appointments etc. I'm not on a salary, as I mentioned earlier. Am I agreeing to go on a salary in future if I sign it? I work a lot of overtime to boost my low wages. If I was salaried i'd probably be on 13k a year!

This you SHOULD challenge. It sounds like potentially they've just copied and pasted the T&Cs and not made them specific to you. They cannot unilaterally impose a change in salary without notice, so definitely challenge it. Hopefully it's just a mistake and they'll amend it to the way you are paid currently.

C) "Your employer can make you take all or any holiday at any time, so long as they give notice." I think this is for Christmas time, when the company closes from 24th into January, but am I agreeing that if, say, March is going to be a very quiet month work-wise, but we are predicted to have a busy summer they can tell me I need to use 2 weeks of my holiday entitlement, even though I have a holiday booked in July?

You may be surprised to learn this, but they can do this already. The law says that the employer has every right to tell you when you can and can't take your holiday. If you book two weeks off in July, then are allowed, by law, to give you notice that they need you and you would have to attend work or face the possibility of disciplinary action. Morally wrong, but not unlawful. And yes, even if you've booked the holiday, paid for it, and your wife has taken time off work.

D) "In the event of holiday dates clashing with other members of staff, seniority with be given priority." So if I have a day off booked and a manager decides he needs that day off too, he gets it off and I don't? Doesn't seem right.

Mean and unfair, but not unlawful. As they can already do this in law (dictate your leave) there's little point challenging it.

E) "Employees are not permitted to take second jobs eg. in the evenings or on weekends without obtaining written agreement from a director." So if the overtime dries up and i'm getting £250 a week I can't take a second job to clothe my child unless the boss says so? :eek:

Very standard in contracts. (There's always the fact of taking another job anyway and hoping they don't find out, but you'd be in breach of contract if you did.) Challenge it, though, on the principal of losing any overtime and needing to provide for your family. You may find this is already an unwritten practice or policy, and therefore this is already part of your contract - even though you didn't know it.

HTH
KiKi

Oscar1919

That was a very helpful post KiKi, much appreciated.