I am being Criminally charged for sitting in an empty seat on a crowded train!

Wireless_2

Prosecuted for changing which seat you sit on? How archaic is that? The OP wasn't even preventing someone with a first class ticket from sitting there and had decided as he felt unwell that he'd much rather pay a penalty charge to the rail company than fall down unconscious.

But prosecution? This guy wasn't trying to avoid a fare, he held a standard season ticket, thats not the actions of someone planning on routine fare avoidance is it?

the more I read about this the more I think the OP needs legal advice.

yorkie2

Criminality wrote: »

Everything I have read in the Passengers Charter and on the National Express Website says that I should have received a Penalty Fare.

This is the charge when making a mistake, but if they feel there wasn't a mistake, then they are likely to take it to prosecution - on a route where upgrading on board isn't possible.

Penalty Fares are for mistakes, not for deliberately avoiding paying the correct fare.

NXEA wrote:

A penalty fare is simply a charge that National Express East Anglia is allowed to make under the Penalty Fare Regulations and Rules. It is not a fine and anyone who is charged one is not being accused of avoiding, or attempting to avoid, paying his or her fare. ‘Fare dodging’ is a completely different matter. It is a criminal offence and we treat it as such by prosecuting offenders under criminal law.

Livingthedream wrote: »

...But my advice would be to repost on the CAG Forum and the RailUK forum as see what people say over there....

Agreed. Here, you'll get some ill-informed replies, and also some unhelpful ones, like the one immediately below your post (which was "thanked" by someone - making an absolute mockery of the "thanks" system! I sometimes think the less thanks a poster has the better as it means they are posting less controversial stuff!;))

forgotmyname wrote: »

I always thought you could upgrade on the train? Shows how often i use trains.

On which train? Not this train! On many trains, yes.

forgotmyname wrote: »

Wouldnt a decent lawyer get you off on this?

Probably not as it's likely to be a byelaw offence, which is strict liability, and is it worth the costs which may be greater than the fine? If it's a prosecution under railway byelaws (likely but the OP will need to check and confirm) then it's not recordable.


The OP may be able to offer a settlement, though.

forgotmyname wrote: »

You got on a train and there were no seats you had no option
to purchase an upgrade on the train. Unreasonable terms?

These trains are Penalty Fare trains and passengers are instructed to buy before boarding. This is quite different to the trains operated on many other routes. You would not normally expect to have your ticket inspected on board these trains, hence why they can be strict when an inspection is carried out.

forgotmyname wrote: »

Deliberately overcrowding the train in the hope people would assume you could upgrade on the train and fine them instead.

I am unsure how a train company deliberately overcrowds a train? But this defence just isn't going to work in court.

Humphrey10 wrote: »

Well last year I upgraded almost every week from a standard Anytime ticket to first class without any problems, I did this about 30 times. I always sat in first class, then when they came round to check tickets I said I wanted to buy an upgrade. I never had to pay a penalty fare (despite travelling from a penalty fare station) and I never got prosecuted for fare evasion. A few times when it was really busy they let me sit in first class for free.

I guess it depends on how you treat the train crew?

On a DOO (driver only operated) train from London to Chelmsford? Now, there are some trains on this route where they would upgrade you, but these are not the sort of train the OP caught, and they tend not to call at Chelmsford in peak hours.


In general you cannot upgrade on PF trains however there are some exceptions, where there are guards. Traditionally PFs have been used as an excuse to get rid of guards but in recent years the DfT has expanded PF schemes and this has caused confusion and complications.

vax2002 wrote: »

Listen, do you intend to enter a guilty plea. ?
Might save everyone some time if you state this before they dig up defences .

I'd offer to settle out of court first!!!

Tucker wrote: »

Basically, your job is at risk and you don't think that's worth pulling out the stops to obtain legal advice?

Have you seen someone on a free initial consultation?

We don't know that he's being prosecuted under the Regulation of Railways act though? It's more likely to be under Railway Byelaws surely? In which case his job is not at risk. We don't know though.

Tucker wrote: »

You won't solve this on a forum. Sacrifice what you have too and get a legal representative otherwise you've no hope of avoiding prosecution.

They maybe able to negotiate a non criminal outcome.

I agree it won't be solved on this forum, but Railforums.co.uk has a dedicated Fares advice section and we have been successful in the vast majority of cases that we have got involved in, including cases identical to the OPs. (Note that the criteria for success does vary; in a case like this it would be an out of court settlement).

jamespir wrote: »

sorry im confused Were you asked to move or did the police just find you in first class

you need to find a solicitor cause other wise youll be screwed oak

Not helpful. We need to know what act he is being prosecuted under first. Unless you know the answer to that I do not see how you can say that?

Owain_Moneysaver wrote: »

Penalty fares are an option the train company can use instead of prosecution, in PF areas. They always have the option to prosecute if they wish.

Transport police cannot (AFAIK) issue penalty fares, so they will prosecute.

This is one of the few posts on this thread that appears to be accurate to me!

Wireless wrote: »

Prosecuted for changing which seat you sit on? How archaic is that? The OP wasn't even preventing someone with a first class ticket from sitting there and had decided as he felt unwell that he'd much rather pay a penalty charge to the rail company than fall down unconscious.

I agree the railway rules are "archaic" but the passenger used accommodation for which he had not paid the fare on a train where it was not possible to upgrade.


Now in an ideal world all trains would have guards and it would be possible to upgrade. But this topic is about giving advice on the actual situation the OP found himself in.

Wireless wrote: »

But prosecution? This guy wasn't trying to avoid a fare, he held a standard season ticket, thats not the actions of someone planning on routine fare avoidance is it?

If he had a standard non-season ticket they may have accepted it was a mistake, but as he had a season ticket then they may have taken the view that he should have been familiar with the rules and that upgrading wasn't possible.


I wonder how the conversation went?

Wireless wrote: »

the more I read about this the more I think the OP needs legal advice.

He certainly needs advice, but the OP needs to find out what offence he is being accused of first!

For accurate advice[1] see:-

* Huddersfield [HUD] - Manchester Piccadilly [MAN] - Buying 1st or Std ticket on board
* Intention to prosecute - standard class ticket in a first class compartment

Note that the scenarios are completely different due to differing policies applying to the trains in question!

[1] By people who are fares experts, guards employed on the national rail network, or other rail staff, or in one case a legal expert, and whose posts are not purely based on their opinion of what they think should happen but are based on reality, experience and most importantly the actual rules and laws! Both topics are recent (2nd October 2011).

Hintza

OP how many times have you sat in 1st class and not been stopped. Perhaps someone has complained.

cyclonebri1

yorkie2 wrote: »

Agreed. Here, you'll get some ill-informed replies, and also some unhelpful ones, like the one immediately below your post (which was "thanked" by someone - making an absolute mockery of the "thanks" system! I sometimes think the less thanks a poster has the better as it means they are posting less controversial stuff!;))

Boy fella are you an insomniac, must have taken all night to do all the multi quotes:rotfl:

I felt I had to comment on the above tho'. I've suggested it several times as other forums have a different system where it's possible to hit the "I agree " button if you feel so disposed. They still keep the "thanks" button so it makes peoples reaction to the post in question much more clear.

It won't have any effect on the hanging judges tho', they'd just press both, ;)

Criminality

Thanks to all for your guidance.

One item I omitted was that I am FSA registered, and that criminal charges can affect my job.

I got some good advice from the CAG that basically advised that I call National Express, explain the situation and take it from there.

They were actually very nice, and very understanding. They even agreed that the National Express website is a big problem not mentioning the prospect of criminal proceedings.

They agreed to settle out of court for a much lower figure.

Once again, thanks all for your help, apart from bigjl obviously.

Trebor16

That's a good result and must be a weight off your mind. How much did they allow you to settle for in the end?

Criminality

£150. Which all things considered is a fair price to pay to learn this lesson, and avoid criminal charges. It is indeed a weight off.

The real lesson for me being, don't sit in first class without a ticket, however unwell you are. The stuff on the windows, and on the website that says you will get a penalty fare of 2x the single first class ticket is not true. That is misleading and to some extent you may be able to use it as a defence (they are in the process of getting it changed, because they recognise that it is misleading), but I am not a lawyer and I imagine this would be a pricier route than the one I took.

If you search around this subject there are cases of people who have been successfully criminally charged for far more ridiculous situations than mine. One woman who's oyster card hadn't registered properly when she touched it (witnessed by other passengers), but she hadn't noticed as she was pushing her baby in a pushchair onto the train at the same time. The newspapers are using the term 'Train Clampers' as the train companies seem to be exploiting this as a real revenue source.