The Benefits System

pqrdef

A._Badger wrote: »

There is a serious lack of enterprise in this country

Well there's an opportunity. I mean, if there's money in this (for instance) car washing, all it needs is one person to grab hold of some kids and organise them. Better if they don't have any gumption, or they'll go independent. The boss's cut can come out of the increased productivity achievable.

You'd think somebody would be having a go at this.

Can't get anything done at all round here. Nobody ever knocks at the door offering to wash the car or tidy the garden or walk the dog or anything, except tarmac the drive.

zagfles

kabayiri wrote: »

Agreed, but there's more than VAT.

I really don't understand why the idea of Tax Credits. Why should employers reap the full benefit of paying low wages in the expectation that the state tops up the incomes of these low paid workers ?

Raise the threshold where everyone starts to pay tax. It's crazy to tax people only then to give them money back via credits.

Well that's exactly what this govt are doing. But that won't get rid of the need for tax credits, since these are based on family size etc whereas tax is independant. What they should really do is allow transferrable tax allowances, so eg a family of 4 get 4 tax allowances. That really would eliminate the need for tax credits.

The reason the last lot introduced tax credits instead was because increasing tax allowances would have benefitted richer people as well as the poor. The obvious solution to that was to increase tax rates at the same time as allowances, which would have been more redistributive and far less bureaucratic than tax credits.

But they had made this stupid promise not to, and tried to outdo the Tories in cutting the basic rate of tax. The Tories always had an aim of getting the basic rate down to 20p, Brown did it and it should have been a PR triumph, but in his usualy style was a disaster as the furore over the abolision of the 10p rate took over :rotfl:

So we're stuck with the mess of the tax credits system and all its problems...till the universal credit takes over. This should be a massive improvement, if they can get the IT system working...

kabayiri

zagfles wrote: »

Well that's exactly what this govt are doing. But that won't get rid of the need for tax credits, since these are based on family size etc whereas tax is independant. What they should really do is allow transferrable tax allowances, so eg a family of 4 get 4 tax allowances. That really would eliminate the need for tax credits.

The reason the last lot introduced tax credits instead was because increasing tax allowances would have benefitted richer people as well as the poor. The obvious solution to that was to increase tax rates at the same time as allowances, which would have been more redistributive and far less bureaucratic than tax credits.

But they had made this stupid promise not to, and tried to outdo the Tories in cutting the basic rate of tax. The Tories always had an aim of getting the basic rate down to 20p, Brown did it and it should have been a PR triumph, but in his usualy style was a disaster as the furore over the abolision of the 10p rate took over :rotfl:

So we're stuck with the mess of the tax credits system and all its problems...till the universal credit takes over. This should be a massive improvement, if they can get the IT system working...

So, what you are saying, in effect, is Politicking getting in the way of sensible and progressive policy.

Why am I not surprised!

Every new administration comes in and thinks it can change the core systems for the better. NHS feels like a political football.

ILW

pqrdef wrote: »

Can't get anything done at all round here. Nobody ever knocks at the door offering to wash the car or tidy the garden or walk the dog or anything, except tarmac the drive.

Sounds like they all have a similar mindset to your own and would rather stay at home watching Jeremy Kyle.

pqrdef

I think they're scared of the curtain-twitchers reporting them to the Benefits Agency.

zagfles

kabayiri wrote: »

So, what you are saying, in effect, is Politicking getting in the way of sensible and progressive policy.

Why am I not surprised!

Every new administration comes in and thinks it can change the core systems for the better. NHS feels like a political football.

Yes, and it's not really the politicians' fault. They need to appeal to the stupid and disinterested who make up the bulk of the electorate. People who are more interested in what Kerry Catona has been up to than what the cause of the current economic crisis is. Those who can understand no more than simple one line messages like "it was the bankers fault".

So rather than sensible policies to address the underlying problems, which as anyone with an ounce of sense realises is more complex than just greedy bankers, the parties try to compete with each other on who can "punish" the bankers the hardest.

The current debate about the 50p tax rate will probably be decided by the political effect - ie what the ignorant public think about it, rather than a detailed analysis of whether it raises or loses revenue for the country.

Just like Labour were scared stiff of raising tax rates, because people expect that and'll say "same old Labour, tax rates up", the Tories are scared stiff of getting rid of the 50p rate, because people will say "same old Tories, looking after their rich mates".

Sod what's good for the country, that comes second to what wins most votes.

ILW

pqrdef wrote: »

I think they're scared of the curtain-twitchers reporting them to the Benefits Agency.

So you agree that the current benefits system is actually stopping people from trying to better themselves.

pqrdef

ILW wrote: »

So you agree that the current benefits system is actually stopping people from trying to better themselves.

It certainly doesn't encourage anybody to earn a few quid or have a few thousand put by.

But the Mailistas flip their lids if they see a scrounger tidying his own garden. They go apoplectic at the thought of one making a few bob and still claiming benefit.

Going4TheDream

pqrdef wrote: »

It certainly doesn't help that Housing Benefit has been used quite recklessly to paper over the deficiencies of housing policy. But that's not the tenant's fault. The tenant only sees the accommodation, not the monopoly money the council has to pay to the landlord because the planners failed to make enough provision for housing low-income families.

Excellent point and and perhaps this is an example of the problems with 'sorting out the benefits system' Same as the 'unemployable' - we need to examine the reasons why they are unemployable. Any changes in the benefits system will need to run concurrently alongside changes to other social systems to make them workable and practical in the long term

It is not a simple as 'cutting it back' without taking a holistic approach.

Going4TheDream

kabayiri wrote: »

Agreed, but there's more than VAT.

I really don't understand why the idea of Tax Credits. Why should employers reap the full benefit of paying low wages in the expectation that the state tops up the incomes of these low paid workers ?

Raise the threshold where everyone starts to pay tax. It's crazy to tax people only then to give them money back via credits.

Maybe if they were to pay more then they wouldnt be so competitive in business and would have to cut staff? I was astounded when I found out that people earning up to £60k could qualify for tax credits, ok they may not have got a lot but if you are earning £60K you should not be getting government support surely?