prepaid dentist, missed appointment been charged for the whole amount

Toothsmith

I understand perfectly that there are different running costs, and regional variations play a part. What we're arguing about here is the bottom end of the range, and I still maintain that below £120ph in the UK in 2011 is impossible and still comply with every directive and regulation and provide decent care.

I'm at a loss to see what part of my argument is unprofessional?

I'm not the one who entered the debate with rather trite comments like:-

unholyangel wrote: »

Next you'll be pulling the "dentists are poor" card =/

If you are in the Accountancy/Business advisor walk of life then you should understand running a business far better than to come out with comments like that.

I do not need to rant about how hard it is to run a business with poor attending customers, as I don't have very many. The reason for that is that I listen to the good business advisors in the dental sector who have very useful tips on how to do it. And they very rarely open their presentations with "You dentists.. tch... haven't you got enough money? Ha Ha Ha..!" Because that wouldn't be very professional!

unholyangel

Did I say anything about dentists ripping people off? Did I say they're "rich"? No. Likewise I have said throughout my posts that they're entitled to charge for actual loss. Although for some reason, you seem to have disregarded anything else I have posted, taken personal offense to my comment and have responded in the way I would not expect of a "professional". Did my comment hit a nerve? You could have focused on the comments (as brook pointed out earlier) saying the dentist got £100 for "free". But you took issue with my particular comment.....why?

But the post I responded to was giving the impression that charging the full amount for work booked is fine because that would JUST cover the overheads regardless of the fact that the OP was charged for work that wasn't done and materials that weren't used. As above I was not saying they rip people off, merely highlighting that like any business, they will be making a profit. After all, if a business doesn't make profit, it won't remain a business for long.

The fact they were charging for work they didn't carry out and materials they didn't use isn't in line with contract law and nor would such a fee be enforceable. < That right there is the relevant part. They are entitled to seek damages for actual loss. Not for "coulda woulda shoulda". What other places cost to run is irrelevant. The only thing that is relevant is what costs they have incurred due to the OP's breach of contract. For all we know the losses were nil as they had someone call/show up needing emergency work or just chancing their luck. Unlikely I know, but possible.

I've said it before but i'll repeat it to be crystal clear. I have no issue with (and would actually encourage) anyone to recoup their actual losses where the other party are in breach of contract.

What I do have an issue with is adding in "losses" that don't exist. Especially when - in a breach of contract situation - they have a duty to mitigate their losses.

I would also encourage any business that has customers/clients who are regularly late without due cause to think about replacing them with a new client who isn't late continuously. Although I certainly can't comment on other areas, around here there is a looooooong waiting list to register with a dentist.

brook2jack

unholyangel wrote: »

I understand fully about overheads and I have the qualifications to prove it. Perhaps it is you that fails to understand that not all dentists will have the same running costs even if they do have to pay for the same things. Location can be a huge factor /QUOTE]

Dental inflation is running at around 10% a year. A few years ago (2008) the NHS in Scotland used £100 an hour as an average cost per hour to run a NHS surgery in Scotland. That figure is now £120 an hour and more for private practice. So a practice running a surgery at less than £100 an hour is very very out of kilter with standard practice if it is a private practice even in a multiple surgery practice.

In the rest of the Uk statistics show that once the nhs abolished failure fines for nhs practice no shows rocketed. Phone calls, texts etc do not have the same rate of success as charging people for lost time.

As to a fair charge, the point of the discussion is to show £100 charge is not money for nothing but in all likelihood less than the practice lost even without the consumables that fillings incur. Medicine in general and dentistry in particular is expensive to provide and we have tried to provide people with an inkling of these fixed costs.

Toothsmith

unholyangel wrote: »

But in contract law, you are only responsible for costs that your breach actually incurred and the other party has a duty to mitigate their losses.........not for overheads incurred during their appointment time.

What it costs to run a room in a dental surgery will vary a lot more than £120-£200 and in fact at least one practice close to me costs significantly less than this.

Next you'll be pulling the "dentists are poor" card =/

(My bold)

The issue I am taking with you - and the thing you seem to be trying to avoid now - is your original assertion, apparently backed up with personal knowledge, that a dental practice can be run for less that £120 per hour.

All my posts ( which for some reason you seem to feel are insulting or unprofessional) have been trying to either get you to back this up, or recognise that in this day and age it is not possible to run a dental practice for such a small amount, certainly not a single surgery, or a multiple practice, unless someone is cutting a few too many corners than is generally considered ethical.

unholyangel

Toothsmith wrote: »

(My bold)

The issue I am taking with you - and the thing you seem to be trying to avoid now - is your original assertion, apparently backed up with personal knowledge, that a dental practice can be run for less that £120 per hour.

All my posts ( which for some reason you seem to feel are insulting or unprofessional) have been trying to either get you to back this up, or recognise that in this day and age it is not possible to run a dental practice for such a small amount, certainly not a single surgery, or a multiple practice, unless someone is cutting a few too many corners than is generally considered ethical.

See again you're resorting to sly remarks to try and discredit what i've said simply because you don't agree with it. The general cost of things here is cheaper. When looking at property prices in say one of the Edinburgh or Glasgow boroughs I am shocked because I know exactly what that can buy me here and properties are a hell of a lot more spacious too. What is sold as a 2 bedroom apartment you could fit fully into my bedroom alone. Then again, if you actually work in this area, you'll also earn less. If you want more money your options are basically to move or commute. A lot of businesses are moving here simply because running costs are so much cheaper!

If you read what i said again, you'll see I said it can vary more. Meaning some will be less and some will be more. But you overlooked the part about it being more and focus on the less part. Nor have you asked me to clarify what I think is "significantly less".

If you want to learn how to reduce your costs then I suggest you listen to your accountant and "business advisors".......although they could be part of the reason why your running costs are so high

brook2jack

Actually if you have a look at the submissions to the Scottish parliament the largest increase in costs to Scottish dental practice have been the massive costs associated with the sterilisation protocols that have required investment in building, man power , equipment and disposables for all practices. The latest figures put NHS dentistry in Scotland at £156 an hour to comply with regulations.

Yes buildings,rates are more expensive in cities but as you will know from the accounts you do this is but a small part of the running costs of practice.

I work in one of the cheapest parts of the Uk. Manpower and buildings are cheap. Everything else is just as expensive as anywhere else. The published running costs of practices and my own knowledge of practices I and colleagues are involved in would indicate it is unknown for a surgery to run at less than £100 an hour unless a hygienist works it and then the average rate is £90 an hour. This reflects the vastly decreased costs associated with a hygienists surgery in terms of equipment, staffing, consumables, cpd etc. It is very very hard to see how you could run a dentists room at costs similar to a hygienists.

My only other thought is perhaps as presumably a non specialist dental accountant the way you've calculated hourly costs is different from the industry accepted norms. It's very easy to miss hidden costs like time off for clinical audit ,cpd and the costs associated with them when as a small example. This might explain the gulf between hourly costs we appear to have.

There is of course no limit to top end prices and laboratory work costs are on top of this hourly costs and again those can vary according to quality etc eh a crown lab costs can vary from £60 to £1000 (very high end).

The submissions to the doctors and dentists group who make recommendations to the nhs over pay take statistics from all over the country. They put dental inflation at over 10% a year and the hourly rate at the levels indicated above.

By all independent measures and generally accepted figures a rate of less than £100 an hour to run a dentists surgery is wildly out of the accepted norms which include practices across the country. No one , including the department of health, Scottish parliament, BDA would recognise that figure as reasonable for the vast , vast majority of practices.

unholyangel

brook2jack wrote: »

Actually if you have a look at the submissions to the Scottish parliament the largest increase in costs to Scottish dental practice have been the massive costs associated with the sterilisation protocols that have required investment in building, man power , equipment and disposables for all practices. The latest figures put NHS dentistry in Scotland at £156 an hour to comply with regulations.

Yes buildings,rates are more expensive in cities but as you will know from the accounts you do this is but a small part of the running costs of practice.

I work in one of the cheapest parts of the Uk. Manpower and buildings are cheap. Everything else is just as expensive as anywhere else. The published running costs of practices and my own knowledge of practices I and colleagues are involved in would indicate it is unknown for a surgery to run at less than £100 an hour unless a hygienist works it and then the average rate is £90 an hour. This reflects the vastly decreased costs associated with a hygienists surgery in terms of equipment, staffing, consumables, cpd etc. It is very very hard to see how you could run a dentists room at costs similar to a hygienists.

There is of course no limit to top end prices and laboratory work costs are on top of this hourly costs and again those can vary according to quality etc eh a crown lab costs can vary from £60 to £1000 (very high end).

The submissions to the doctors and dentists group who make recommendations to the nhs over pay take statistics from all over the country. They put dental inflation at over 10% a year and the hourly rate at the levels indicated above.

By all independent measures and generally accepted figures a rate of less than £100 an hour to run a dentists surgery is wildly out of the accepted norms which include practices across the country. No one , including the department of health, Scottish parliament, BDA would recognise that figure as reasonable for the vast , vast majority of practices.

I haven't said whether it was less or more than £100, again.....you're jumping to conclusions instead of relying on the actual facts presented to you.

I was going to tell you the exact cost after discussing it with my friend last night. But since neither of you seem to be capable of reading my posts without twisting what I say into something else entirely, I think I'd be more productive banging my head off a brick wall.

No hard feelings or ill intent. Good luck with your practice and enjoy the holidays.

brook2jack

unholyangel wrote: »

And it is also possible that the £100 not only covered the losses but also gave some profit.

's.

The whole point of this conversation is that the above based on an hours appointment is not possible on the generally held statistics, particularly for a private practice with the increased overheads that entails.

Many of the posters were under the impression that the £100 paid to the practice for a failed appointment was money for free. They may not appreciate that costs were incurred whether they turned up or not. They may not appreciate a practice works so a chair in a surgery is constantly booked out dentists do not sit waiting for someone to turn up. They may not appreciate the money the surgery lost by someone not turning up even allowing for the savings in materials may still be more than the £100 the op paid. They may not appreciate if someone who does not turn up doesn't pay to cover the costs then a patient who does turn up will have to pay extra which is patently not fair.


Your point was about fair and proportional charging,the evidence on hourly rates to run private surgeries is that the op could legitimately been asked to pay more than £100 to cover the costs of the failed appointment, as generally held statistics would find your friends hourly rate of less than £120 an hour and your statement that some surgeries could run at sub £100 widely out of kilter particularly for private practice.

unholyangel

brook2jack wrote: »

The published running costs of practices and my own knowledge of practices I and colleagues are involved in would indicate it is unknown for a surgery to run at less than £100 an hour.

By all independent measures and generally accepted figures a rate of less than £100 an hour to run a dentists surgery is wildly out of the accepted norms which include practices across the country. No one , including the department of health, Scottish parliament, BDA would recognise that figure as reasonable for the vast , vast majority of practices.

Your post here indicates it is not unknown for a surgery to operate at £100 or slightly above. And could in fact be considered "norm" where under £100 couldnt.

brook2jack wrote: »

The whole point of this conversation is that the above based on an hours appointment is not possible on the generally held statistics, particularly for a private practice with the increased overheads that entails.

Many of the posters were under the impression that the £100 paid to the practice for a failed appointment was money for free. They may not appreciate that costs were incurred whether they turned up or not. They may not appreciate a practice works so a chair in a surgery is constantly booked out dentists do not sit waiting for someone to turn up. They may not appreciate the money the surgery lost by someone not turning up even allowing for the savings in materials may still be more than the £100 the op paid. They may not appreciate if someone who does not turn up doesn't pay to cover the costs then a patient who does turn up will have to pay extra which is patently not fair.


Your point was about fair and proportional charging,the evidence on hourly rates to run private surgeries is that the op could legitimately been asked to pay more than £100 to cover the costs of the failed appointment, as generally held statistics would find your friends hourly rate of less than £120 an hour and your statement that some surgeries could run at sub £100 widely out of kilter particularly for private practice.

I might have missed it, but perhaps you'd like to direct me to the post that the OP said their appointment was for an hour or more? Perhaps you'd also like to direct me to the post in which I said the highlighted text above. Or are you referring to my post you have quoted and then assumed to have meant something other than it did? As I said, we do not know how long the OP's appointment was for. For all we know, it was half an hour. If that is the case, £100 for 30 mins = £200 an hour.....by your own reckoning it would be entirely possible to have made a profit from the £100 fee charged since the "majority" of practices cost £120-£200 an hour to run (thats £60-£100 per half hour btw).

Or is this perhaps another example of you jumping to conclusions based on your own assumptions instead of relying on the facts that have actually been presented/what has actually been said?

brook2jack

rule wrote: »

That was itemized for fillings (service that i didn't receive) , .

Most dentists might do one private filling in half an hour but more than one? Yes conjecture but not a massive leap of logic.

As you know from doing the accounts the majority of overheads on filling appointments are fixed costs ie you are paying for the dentists time as opposed to proceedures where laboratory costs are the main expense eg dentures,bridges etc , or where the disposables and specialised not often used equipment/materials is very expensive eg root treatment or where the components are massively expensive eg implants.

For a filling the costs of materials/disposables used on the patient for , in your arguments sake, a half hour will in no way cost £100 unless your nurse spills or leaves the top off a bottle of the expensive dental glue for White fillings . Even if someone doesn't turn up the equipment / disposables that have been prepared will have to be resterilised or disposed off but again the majority of the costs in a filling appointment are time related.

So yes I have drawn conclusions but ones that are based on experience and information given.

The figures for practice expenses are easily verifiable on the net but perhaps not as easily as talking to alot of practicing dentists. As ever when talking on forums there is no guarantee that any of us are who we say we are, and Internet information should always be taken with a pinch of salt. But as I said hourly rate info is available from reputable sites and would indicate for nhs practice sub £120 per hour is very unusual and for private practice where overheads are higher impossible.