Europe falls apart

Going4TheDream

pqrdef wrote: »

Except that it's actually been phenomenally successful. Compared to what Europe would have been like without it.

Excuse my ignorance but how exactly?

The Swiss seem to be doing very well without it

Wookster

Mrs_Bones wrote: »

I'm starting to feel a bit sorry for Angela Merkel, she's already close to committing political suicide.

Its all about leadership and she has wholly failed to have the right national debates about the gravity of the situation. I suspect with a proper national debate, weighing the options and potential outcomes she would be in a different situation.

But no, instead, she tries to muddle through, getting the bailout via the back door rather than through consensus and debate and that infuriates the electorate.

The Euro's failure is as much about a failure of leadership as it is about the structural problems underlying the Euro itself.

Kennyboy66

A._Badger wrote: »

Alternatively, that the Guardian's leader writers will never forgive him.

The EU was a busted flush from the start. All it was ever going to take was time.

A far more interesting game to play, as Peter Oborne noted last week, is to start identifying the 'Guilty Men'.

really ?

Is this from 1958 onwards, 1993 onwards or just monetary union ?

The single market is a great achievement.

pqrdef

Going4TheDream wrote: »

The Swiss seem to be doing very well without it

The question I'm asking is whether Europe (including Switzerland) is a better place for the existence of the EU than it would be if nobody had bothered.

The vast majority of Europeans think it is. Even some of the little Englanders who hate Britain being in it would agree, if they can suppress their knee-jerks for a moment, that it hasn't been a bad thing for the rest of Europe.

The fact that the Swiss have chosen not to join for the time being doesn't seem relevant.

ChiefGrasscutter

Kennyboy66 wrote: »

really ?

Is this from 1958 onwards, 1993 onwards or just monetary union ?

The single market is a great achievement.

Really?
In the industry I worked in it seemed to us that...
a) the UK obeyed the rules and therefore gave orders to anyone EXCEPT home based suppliers - to avoid any possible accusations of bias.
b) The Euro countries merely thought up new excuses as to why the product was not suitable - you know the colour shade of red might not be exactly right, now that they could no longer shelter behind some non compliance with some 'standards' special to the particular country.

In fact any tender request coming from a Euro land country was usually a waste of time, so we concentrated on the more productive tenders/orders in the rest of the world.

I recall our executives at group level actually registered a complaint with the EU with some of the spurious reasons given for rejecting our tenders by Euro land....fat chance of anything happening though.

Single market - yeah I'll bet

ninky_2

The superpowers such as US would like nothing more than to see the EU fail. A large united Europe would be a mighty challenge to their own United States. Funny how they fund independence movements for everyone except their own....

RenovationMan

Going4TheDream wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance but how exactly?

The Swiss seem to be doing very well without it

The Norwegians too. They get all of the benefits of free flow of skilled workers and trade and yet they retain control of their currency, borders, fisheries, economy and legal system.

As far as I know they get much the same benefits from Europe as we do but without so much pain and certainly not with such a large financial cost.

Graham_Devon

Renoman back?

Out,_Vile_Jelly

RenovationMan wrote: »

The Norwegians too. They get all of the benefits of free flow of skilled workers and trade and yet they retain control of their currency, borders, fisheries, economy and legal system.

As far as I know they get much the same benefits from Europe as we do but without so much pain and certainly not with such a large financial cost.

The Norwegians invested all their oil money in astoundingly sensible long term policies. They'll be happy to join once that money runs out (a long time hence). Switzerland is also financially stable and can afford to be independent. Bluntly, the UK needs the EU far more than they do.

RenovationMan

Out,_Vile_Jelly wrote: »

The Norwegians invested all their oil money in astoundingly sensible long term policies. They'll be happy to join once that money runs out (a long time hence). Switzerland is also financially stable and can afford to be independent. Bluntly, the UK needs the EU far more than they do.

I doubt the EU will still be around when the Norwegians money runs out. Indeed I doubt that Mankind will still be around by the time the Norwegian's run out of money.

My point was that for what we need the EU for, we could get by being outside the EU but within the EEA (European Economic Area), EFTA (European Free Trade Area) and Schengen Area.