Bauformat, Schuller or Mereway

CKdesigner

Gtee wrote: »

We are currently looking for a new kitchen have had quotes from Benchmarxx, investigated Wickes, Magnet Homebase and discounted those. Been to John Lewis (Mereway) and impressed, also liked Alno, have seen Scheuller in a local independent, and liked that very much, is that better than Alno? Haven't seen Baufort so would like to know more.
Galley kitchen, 1 very long run, 1 short, need integrated tall units for freezer and fridge, and pull out larder and oven housing and larder. Pan drawers, 2 x Base units, and 1 1000 midi hieght unit. Price - Rough guide for Scheuller and Baufort?
Have quote from online supplier for Mereway Cucina Lastra (needs modifying for some of above units but nearly there £6.5k, no fitting, no worktops? But I do want a quality kitchen
thanks, Pauline

Hi Gtee

Firstly welcome to the MSE forum.

Generally once you're in the middle market for kitchens then German brands are the ones to go for. Arguably the 2 main makes would be Schueller and Hacker, but there are plenty of others. They are all considerably better built kitchens than similarly priced English makes and far more versatile.

My advice would be to you though what is far more important than the small differences between Schueller, hacker, Alno or Bauformat is your chosen designer and the quality of their fitters.

The price of the cabinetry very much depends on your chosen door so it is kind of difficult to say whether the price you have mentioned is good value or not, but as I say the design of the kitchen is far more important, get this drawn up first and specified then if you want to visit different suppliers then give all of them exactly the same specification to work to. Its amazing how many people I see that give a vastly different specification to 4 or 5 (sometimes even more) kitchen companies, get hugely different quotes and then try and compare them!

Good luck

CK

Gtee

thank you for the informative and helpful reply CK. I now realise I should probably have started a new thread? Apologies to OP.

I take your point about comparing like to like (and not confusing me in the process)! Will kitchen companies/designers/independents that offer mid range German Kitchens - and what brands are these anyway, provide quotes if I just hand over a spec? Would you do that? I've been reading every post I can find but am still confused. We just need supply only, son in law is a carpenter and fits kitchens regularly and worktops but not granite or quartz. OH is competent DIY'er. For appliances we are looking at Miele Single Oven BP, Miele integrated fridge and separate freeze, possibly Neff/Bosch Dishwasher Hob and Elica Hood.

CKdesigner

Hi Gtee

I can't really comment for other independent kitchen specialists but if I explain a little more about the service we give it might help.

We offer a full kitchen design service where the customer employs us to properly design their space, taking many factors into account. At the end of the process the customer gets a complete file with good quality 3D pictures, a full set of plans including annotated wall elevations and a fully itemised listing of units and components required to achieve that kitchen. As there is a lot of time and effort that goes into this we charge for this service but we do refund this cost against an order for the kitchen from us. The main benefit of this for the customer is that they get a properly designed kitchen complete specification that they can give to any kitchen retailer for them to give a price on.

Often people ask me to measure up their space to give them a quote, the first question I ask them is have you been anywhere else and had a design done? If they have and are happy with it then I ask them to bring that information in for me to price against, as I feel if they have already gone through the design process its just a waste of everyone's time to do it all again.

So in answer to your question would I be happy for someone to bring in their plans and specification to provide a quote for a supply only kitchen, the answer is yes - no problem.

CK

Pete_simp

Im afraid your wrong with the comment "bauformat and schuller are better".

German companies all make a very poor carcass and are know where near as solid as Mereway. The standard German carcass is 16mm, with a hard board back, all white internal, and Schuller only finish the visible carcass ends with edging tape, so you can see white through the most of the doors. Most German companies also generally push laminated doors, so its important to know how the door you are being quoted for is being made eg lacquered is always best for gloss.

Some people will always assume that German is better -its a shame thats how people feel about British manufacturing - even when they have been shown a product which is clearly much better - just by a quick examination of the product you are investing in will show you that!

ryder72

Pete_simp would you mind putting out objective arguments about why British kitchens are better?

You talk 16mm carcases but dont talk about carcase density. You mention hard backs but dont say what 18mm solid backs do apart from adding weight.

You talk about all white internal which I think is a subjective argument (FYI some german manufacturers do make colour coordinated carcases too).

You talk about edging tape - Germans dont use edging table by colour matched ABS edging which to my knowledge no British manufacturers use. At best they use PVC which isnt a patch on ABS. Most use edging tape which is about as suitable for a cabinet edge as a face tissue is for wiping a kitchen worktop.

Most German companies offer a range of doors at all price points from laminates, wraps, acrylics, lacquers etc so on that front its comparable to British companies. Perhaps importantly, most German laminate doors are of a far superior standard to British ones I have seen (I happily stand to be corrected). How many people actually buy gloss lacquers? They are excellent but expensive and I am not talking about lacquered foils while are only marginally better than vinyl wraps.

I would welcome the opportunity for you to visit our studio and demonstrate why I feel German kitchens are better. And while you are at it, feel free to bring the best British made carcase you can find. If its comparable, you have my commitment that I will take the product on and start selling it.

Furts

ryder72 wrote: »

Pete_simp would you mind putting out objective arguments about why British kitchens are better?

You talk 16mm carcases but dont talk about carcase density. You mention hard backs but dont say what 18mm solid backs do apart from adding weight.

You talk about all white internal which I think is a subjective argument (FYI some german manufacturers do make colour coordinated carcases too).

You talk about edging tape - Germans dont use edging table by colour matched ABS edging which to my knowledge no British manufacturers use. At best they use PVC which isnt a patch on ABS. Most use edging tape which is about as suitable for a cabinet edge as a face tissue is for wiping a kitchen worktop.

Most German companies offer a range of doors at all price points from laminates, wraps, acrylics, lacquers etc so on that front its comparable to British companies. Perhaps importantly, most German laminate doors are of a far superior standard to British ones I have seen (I happily stand to be corrected). How many people actually buy gloss lacquers? They are excellent but expensive and I am not talking about lacquered foils while are only marginally better than vinyl wraps.

I would welcome the opportunity for you to visit our studio and demonstrate why I feel German kitchens are better. And while you are at it, feel free to bring the best British made carcase you can find. If its comparable, you have my commitment that I will take the product on and start selling it.

So a rattly or flimsy hardboard back is OK because a solid 18mm is only adding weight...

And 16mm carcass is as good as a 18mm carcass because it is denser...

And the German laminate doors are far superior to the ...solid British doors I have just purchased...

And selling German kitchens is better because there is no competition from the DIY sheds...

And the margins on German kitchens are better than British ones...

ryder72

--So a rattly or flimsy hardboard back is OK because a solid 18mm is only adding weight...
Its neither rattly nor flimsy. It does the job its meant to do ie covering the back and preventing things from dropping out. The strength in the carcase comes from the dowelled and glued assembly.

--And 16mm carcass is as good as a 18mm carcass because it is denser...
Yes and I would argue better. Your point was?

--And the German laminate doors are far superior to the ...solid British doors I have just purchased...
I dont know what you have purchased but I dont know what your point it. Read what I have written. I said German made laminate doors are generally speaking higher than the British counterparts I have seen. I haven't heard of hollow doors so your 'solid' doors mean nothing.

--And selling German kitchens is better because there is no competition from the DIY sheds...
If you were up to date with whats going on, homebase now sell Nobilia kitchens. In any case we dont compete with the sheds so its an irrelevant point.

--And the margins on German kitchens are better than British ones...
That's your conclusion and its certainly not the case (feel free to PM me if you want details) I sell German kitchens because I feel they are leagues ahead when it comes to the quality, reliability of supplier, flexibility in design etc. I have publicly said it several times before - show me a British supplier that can do what my German supplier does and I will change.

It seems you have bought a British made kitchen from a shed and you are happy with what you have got. That's perfectly fine. There are some people out there who want a higher quality higher spec product, seeking useful information on this forum. Please could you desist from making pointless posts unless you have anything objective to add?

Furts

Hello ryder72.
I am not making pointless posts but if you feel this I apologize.

You are incorrect. I have not bought a British kitchen from a shed.

I did what any mse user would be wise to consider . This is, avoid the middle men and go to Marpatt and their sub contract chain. End result, a kitchen made to my sizes, to a mid range quality, at significantly less than at least one quote I had from a shed. It was also less than half the best price from a local kitchen shop.

If I, an ordinary punter can do this, then others should be able to do the same.

CKdesigner

Hi Furts

That's ingenious thinking from you. That's fine if a Marpatt door is the style of kitchen you want but for the majority of the market more modern kitchens is where its at.

Could I ask, if you purchased the doors from Marpatts sub contract chain and this sub contract chain I assume sourced the carcasses as well for you, who designed the kitchen for you?

Also where did you get the worktop from? Appliances? And who fitted the kitchen for you?

Thanks

CK

Furts

CKdesigner wrote: »

Hi Furts

That's ingenious thinking from you. That's fine if a Marpatt door is the style of kitchen you want but for the majority of the market more modern kitchens is where its at.

Could I ask, if you purchased the doors from Marpatts sub contract chain and this sub contract chain I assume sourced the carcasses as well for you, who designed the kitchen for you?

Also where did you get the worktop from? Appliances? And who fitted the kitchen for you?

Thanks

CK

Hi CKdesigner.

I started by drawing up plans of the various rooms and drew up a specification for suppliers to meet.

Sub contract chain made the carcasses for me. This avoids the Marpatt mark up - which is fine provided one wishes to pay it. (I appreciate they have a business to run).

The design was by my wife and myself - not difficult, but time consuming. The flip side is we did originally go to kitchen designers, but with the exception of one, they were indifferent and bordering on incompetent. So our decision was we would design our own. Basically, market conditions forced us into this!

Having got to the design stage we added new walls, windows, ceilings plus heating, plumbing and electrics. This was not in the brief to the kitchen designers, but having brought this back in house, why not? Again not difficult.

The worktops we sourced to our specification, again not difficult. I will not mention names but if I say the most expensive Spanish you will know the brand and type.

The appliances we sourced - all reasonable/good quality; Miele, Franke, Rangemaster. Not difficult, in fact easier than dealing with a kitchen showroom. When approaching a wholesaler for a cash sale of perhaps, £5000 plus, they are very helpful!

The fitter we sourced via recommendation. First rate, excellent work and incredible value. Of course we first trialled him to minimise our risk. He agreed he would not be paid for the first day if his work was not satisfactory. We would just dismiss him. Naturally, his first day would be on joinery such as hanging doors and a mulitude of other tasks. Nobody puts an unknown on fitting a kitchen. So again, not difficult.

We ended up with a reasonable sized kitchen, a breakfast room and a utility. We think we obtained reasonable value, but there is always room for improvement.

We are aware of the limitations of the Marpatt range, These ranges suited the style of the property . Of course, we are also aware of other suppliers who would have dealt with us had we wanted modern, shiny..whatever. I will not mention names, you know who they all are. We would simply have gone to them instead . Again, not difficult.

I am not a carpenter or kitchen man. I respect you and the other kitchen mse users. I welcome all your contributions. That said, I do wonder if customers, such as myself, are not credited with having just the smallest amount of good old fashioned common sense. Designing a kitchen, sourcing every component, then getting it fitted...it is not rocket science!

If I can do it anyone can!