If father goes into care

Mojisola

John_Pierpoint wrote: »

I'm interested in the reasoning behind the local authority insisting that the bungalow being transferred from joint-tenants to tenants-in-common?

I'd like to know more about this, too, as my parents are currently joint tenants. Surely if the house is disregarded, that's it. I wonder if someone has overstepped their authority in insisting on this change of ownership.

Pollycat

My Mum swung between being determined to cope herself (my sister was going up every day, sometimes twice a day) and insisting that Dad had to go into a home because she couldn't cope.

We were so worried about both her mental and physical well-being.

I think part of the worry was to do with financial concerns - they don't own property but do have a level of savings that meant Dad would be self funding.

The day we 'decided' was so difficult, my sister and I were putting forward postitive reasons for him to be safe and comfortable in a care home and Mum was still backing away.
Dad had gone to a Day Care centre and we had local council social services and someone from the local cottage hospital to assess him when he came home.

It was clear to them that he had really deteriorated since they last saw him (several weeks earlier) and just wasn't fit to be at home.

His fall later that week was just the final indication that we'd definitely made the right decision.

A couple of other things to consider:
you mention that your Dad goes into residential respite - is your Mum getting any other help with him?
Our local council social services did a budget for care and we had someone come in every day to help Dad with getting up, showering and dressing. He also had 2 sessions at a Day Care Centre which gave Mum some 'me' time plus a 4 hour sitting service on Saturdays so she could pop out and do whatever she wanted.

Also, it might be a good idea if you start to look into what income your Mum would have if your Dad did go permanently into a care home. I know this was a worry for Mum.

Re the care home you've chosen - is it local to you? Can your Mum get to it herself?
My Mum was visibly relieved when we explained to her that the home that Dad was going to was on the local bus route, only took 10 minutes plus a 3 minute walk and she would be able to visit him every day if she wanted to (she did).

The more you can put your Mum's mind at rest, the better.

John_Pierpoint

Mojisola wrote: »

I'd like to know more about this, too, as my parents are currently joint tenants. Surely if the house is disregarded, that's it. I wonder if someone has overstepped their authority in insisting on this change of ownership.

Legally all land in the country belongs to the queen - but somewhere along the line her ancestors gave a freeman a freehold title; meaning she is not collecting her rents any more. Joint tenants are automatically in a trust relationship, where the subsequent beneficiary is automatically defined as the survivor.

Tenants in common have the ability to nominate their beneficiary and there is a clause that says the sale must be authorised by the common owners ("unless authorised by a trust corporation"), so perhaps the local authority in the "joint" case is forced to wait (interest free?) until the second death, by which time the value of the bungalow could have mortgaged away?

The "recommended" estate planning advice is to leave the survivor of a tenancy in common an "interest in possession" trust. That is a life interest with the "remainder-man" being the children (usually).

This leaves the survivor (usually the widow) still only owning half a house but qualifying for the IHT relief of a dual zero rate band for IHT.
It is also said to prevent that half of the family home becoming liable for care fees.

So I still don't understand the procedure from this local authority

Mojisola

John_Pierpoint wrote: »

The "recommended" estate planning advice is to leave the survivor of a tenancy in common an "interest in possession" trust. That is a life interest with the "remainder-man" being the children (usually).

This leaves the survivor (usually the widow) still only owning half a house but qualifying for the IHT relief of a dual zero rate band for IHT.
It is also said to prevent that half of the family home becoming liable for care fees.

This is what we have done with our will but Mum and Dad pass everything to each other. Mum wouldn't be accepted as competent to sign a new will so it will have to stay that way.

Trebor16

Corona wrote: »

Yes, he is getting attendance allowance. Their joint savings are below £15,000.

Your dads share of the savings would be £7500 so he is well below the threshold.

Corona wrote:

I used the phrase "her" bungalow because I was posting about the situation when Dad is no longer alive (when she may wish to move). At that point it will be hers.

His condition: diabetes; brain damage (due to a number of strokes - and he experiences TIAs - mini strokes - on a regular basis); can hardly walk; is doubly incontinent; cannot take himself to the toilet, bath himself, dress himself; is sometimes delusional (thinks he needs to go to work; thinks I'm his sister; thinks he's still in a city he lived in when he was younger, etc.) memory loss; cognitive confusion, etc.

Is that enough?

In my view your dad's needs are primarily health needs and he should qualify for full funding by the NHS. But getting the NHS to agree will be a battle royal. They will wriggle and try very hard to evade their lawful responsibilities. Have you managed to read the thread ere about continuing care (I think it was started by Monkeyspanner)?

Pollycat

Here's the thread about CHC:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/800521

Corona
I also did some digging about NHS-funded care.

Counsel & Care also have some good guides on that too, I looked at these 2:
http://www.counselandcare.org.uk/health-care

CHC - should the NHS be paying for your care?
and
CHC - understanding the assessment process

You can either download the guides you are interested in or ring them and they'll post them out.

cavework

NHS full funding? My father is in exactly the same position as OP's
The person has to be virtually dead to receive this, fight all you like but in the meantime you have to find a place that is suitable.
If he is to be self funding ? All the better as you have much more choice open to you
NHS contribution to care is different and pays towards the medical care required while in a Nursing Home.
OP this is a really difficult decision to make but you have to take your Mothers health into account.
Dad entered a Nursing home 18 months ago after a stroke .. Mum had no choice as Adult Social Services would not allow him to return home as he needed 24/7 Nursing care. Bear in mind Dad is now 89 and Mum is 87.
We now bring Dad home every 2 weeks to visit his wife.. the nursing home is fantastic and supports us in this although it is a major endevour everytime.
I think that the common perception that once a person enters a Nursing Home their previous connection with family life ends, needs to be changed.
This is not always the case but where it can apply, it does involve hard work from the family.

Penry

Hi there, I wonder if the tenants in common might have been suggested to be helpful rather than something more sinister (though I can not imagine how this was made a condition of getting help)? If Mum sadly died while Dad in care and all the house was owned as Joint Tenants this would mean the whole of the estate then passed automatically to Dad and WOULD be used to fund his care. My understanding is that tenants in common protects against this happening to some extent i.e. If Mum dies before Dad, her 50% would go as she wills it, his 50% would become part of his capital, and come into the equation for care home funding.

I'm sorry for your situation OP. If your parents' social worker is off work, you should be able to talk to a duty worker or her senior if you need advice/assistance. Or the Council will have a Finance Team who deals with this. Age UK are also very good.

Best wishes.

Tuesday_Tenor

I totally understnd about homecare not being useful as you can't be sure when he will wake up.

Corona wrote: »

Mum actually hates having people into the house; she's a very private person - and although I have suggested having someone in to sit with Dad, it's very difficult because they would have to be prepared to take him to the toilet and clean him up afterwards, and very few people are (and also Dad doesn't like anyone but Mum doing it - poor Mum )

As another mechanism for giving Mum a break for a few hours:
Do you have a Crossroads-type respite service in your area?
http://www.crossroads.org.uk/
Possibly not, otherwise the Social Worker/DN would no doubt have suggested it ...

If you do, it would be well worth considering as you do need all the resources you can get. Toiletting would be a normal task for the staff. The service would be set up very sensitively, aiming to find a staff member who 'fits' with the family, recognising that ideally they wouldn't want someone in at all. The service is respite for the CARER, so you're Mum's needs (for timing of the visit etc.) are regarded as important, as well as the detailed plan for caring for you dad.

HTH
(from a former Crossroads Manager)

Trebor16

Corona wrote: »

The tenants in common issue was due to the following ...

My parents sold their previous house and moved near me, to a bungalow. I'm an only child and they'd both lost touch with wider family, so they had no help. My father had already had two strokes and was very passive at that point - he would have agreed to anything - so my Mum had the new bungalow put in her name, because she was worried that he'd be persuaded to "sign anything" if she wasn't around. But when the Council found out, they insisted that it be transferred into joint names. My parents had to pay for this and were advised by the solicitor concerned to put it into Tenants in Common, rather than Joint Tenants, so that the most the Council could ever claim from it would be 50 percent (for my father's care) and not take all of it, if Mum died first (not that uncommon for carers, unfortunately).

As far as I'm aware, they can only claim against the bungalow if Mum is not longer living there or if she moves and doesn't need all of the proceeds of it to buy another home (and then only if Dad has gone into a Care Home and his fees are unpaid).

Hope that's right.

What was the legal basis that the council used to insist that the house had to be shown as jointly owned again?