MSE News: Sainsbury's shopper arrested for coupon fraud

princesslou_2

A Sainsbury’s spokesman said: ‘We can confirm a customer was arrested at our Wrexham store on Friday.
'We have internal systems in place to monitor coupon usage and we always work closely with the relevant authorities to ensure incidents like this are rare.’


I used to work for a well known supermarket (before coupons/dtd/glitches were THIS popular) and every few hours, our tills were taken and counted. Any coupons (especially the couponstar types) were frequently brought back to you and you were asked "whose was this?". most stores have "regular" couponers (even in those days), so if it was a regular you would say who. frequently they checked the cameras back on these people, and when they came in the store they would be watched/followed. most checkout staff knew them by sight and had nicknames for them, created by what they wore/bought ("cat food coupon lady etc"). and on several occasions your till-drawer would be swiftly removed as soon as they had been through using coupons. also, coincidentally, as they were paying for shopping, checkout managers and supervisors would suddenly appear at your till with a various job to do, so they could watch the regular-couponer.

imho no amateur coupon-user would attempt £150 in one go, so im assuming she was a regular at it. which means they were probably watching her coupon-use already and waiting for a chance to pull her.

chattychappy

mustrum_ridcully wrote: »

she could have basically broken Section 16 of the 1968 Theft Act: "Obtaining a Pecuniary Advantage by Deception. - A person who by any deception dishonestly obtains for himself or another any pecuniary* advantage shall on conviction on indictment, be liable to a imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years"

Actually this has been repealed. The new offence is in s2 Fraud Act 2006: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/35/section/2. Nicely drafted in plain words. Easy to read, no excuses!

Slightly easier to prove and up to 10 years! (See section 1).

2 Fraud by false representation

(1) A person is in breach of this section if he— (a) dishonestly makes a false representation, and (b) intends, by making the representation—
(i)to make a gain for himself or another, or
(ii)to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.


(2)A representation is false if—
(a)it is untrue or misleading, and
(b)the person making it knows that it is, or might be, untrue or misleading.


(3)“Representation” means any representation as to fact or law, including a representation as to the state of mind of—
(a)the person making the representation, or
(b)any other person.


(4)A representation may be express or implied.


(5)For the purposes of this section a representation may be regarded as made if it (or anything implying it) is submitted in any form to any system or device designed to receive, convey or respond to communications (with or without human intervention).

The test for "dishonesty" is the "ghosh test" (from R v Ghosh 1982)
"... a jury must first of all decide whether according to the ordinary standards of reasonable and honest people what was done was dishonest... If it was dishonest... then the jury must consider whether the defendant himself must have realised that what he was doing was by those standards dishonest." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_Ghosh

cocoloco

princesslou wrote: »

A Sainsbury’s spokesman said: ‘We can confirm a customer was arrested at our Wrexham store on Friday.
'We have internal systems in place to monitor coupon usage and we always work closely with the relevant authorities to ensure incidents like this are rare.’


I used to work for a well known supermarket (before coupons/dtd/glitches were THIS popular) and every few hours, our tills were taken and counted. Any coupons (especially the couponstar types) were frequently brought back to you and you were asked "whose was this?". most stores have "regular" couponers (even in those days), so if it was a regular you would say who. frequently they checked the cameras back on these people, and when they came in the store they would be watched/followed. most checkout staff knew them by sight and had nicknames for them, created by what they wore/bought ("cat food coupon lady etc"). and on several occasions your till-drawer would be swiftly removed as soon as they had been through using coupons. also, coincidentally, as they were paying for shopping, checkout managers and supervisors would suddenly appear at your till with a various job to do, so they could watch the regular-couponer.

imho no amateur coupon-user would attempt £150 in one go, so im assuming she was a regular at it. which means they were probably watching her coupon-use already and waiting for a chance to pull her.

I find this practise extremely disturbing!!!
I wonder if the supermarkets still do this, don't they have anything better to do?

jetty

cocoloco wrote: »

I find this practise extremely disturbing!!!
I wonder if the supermarkets still do this, don't they have anything better to do?

I would find it similar to security guards following people round stores who they believe have stolen things - i even used to follow people round who were known theives - imo it's similar circumstances

Obukit

cocoloco wrote: »

I find this practise extremely disturbing!!!
I wonder if the supermarkets still do this, don't they have anything better to do?

You mean other than protect their revenue? Remember, if she used £150 of coupons that shouldn't have been redeemable, because they were copied, Sainsburys wouldn't have got the money back from the manufacturer.

I use coupons a lot but I never copy ones you shouldn't, because it's effectively akin to printing fake money at home then trying to pass it off as real at the till. Yes, Sainsburys are a huge company but if people keep on doing this they will just see internet coupons as too much hassle and stop taking them, so everyone loses out.

cocoloco

Obukit wrote: »

I use coupons a lot but I never copy ones you shouldn't, because it's effectively akin to printing fake money at home then trying to pass it off as real at the till. QUOTE]

I meant that I find it very disturbing that they 'keep a close eye' on people who use 'coupons a lot' - i do use plenty of coupons (legimetly) BUT i would be completly put off if I would think that the store monitoring my every move...

rickbonar

chattychappy wrote: »

Actually this has been repealed. The new offence is in s2 Fraud Act 2006: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/35/section/2. Nicely drafted in plain words. Easy to read, no excuses!

Slightly easier to prove and up to 10 years! (See section 1).

2 Fraud by false representation

(1) A person is in breach of this section if he— (a) dishonestly makes a false representation, and (b) intends, by making the representation—
(i)to make a gain for himself or another, or
(ii)to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.


(2)A representation is false if—
(a)it is untrue or misleading, and
(b)the person making it knows that it is, or might be, untrue or misleading.


(3)“Representation” means any representation as to fact or law, including a representation as to the state of mind of—
(a)the person making the representation, or
(b)any other person.


(4)A representation may be express or implied.


(5)For the purposes of this section a representation may be regarded as made if it (or anything implying it) is submitted in any form to any system or device designed to receive, convey or respond to communications (with or without human intervention).

The test for "dishonesty" is the "ghosh test" (from R v Ghosh 1982)
"... a jury must first of all decide whether according to the ordinary standards of reasonable and honest people what was done was dishonest... If it was dishonest... then the jury must consider whether the defendant himself must have realised that what he was doing was by those standards dishonest." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_Ghosh

So it isn't just a "pecuniary" advantage anymore then?

I find the new version harder to understand btw.

I think it's high time then that the Police go in and arrest the entire set of members at the house commons and Lords then.

And while we're at it countless illegal/legal immigrant workers and their bosses too.

rickbonar

Hey we will have a situation where the Police will be arresting themselves and their top Commissioners.

JimmyTheWig

Search wrote: »

I do the shopping for several family members (totally legitimately) and whilst I rarely use coupons I have had coupons in different names to use in the past - is that not allowed:eek:?

I think that's allowed as long as you are upfront about it. If you tell the cashier that you've got several of the same coupons but you've bought several of the same product for several family members then it is up to them.

I remember someone telling me years ago people can call themselves any name they like and it isn't against the law?!

That's correct, as long as you are not doing it in order to be deceptive.

LadyDee wrote: »

Why are people saying they are sorry for this woman? Will they still feel sorry for her when the supermarkets just refuse to take any coupons because of abuse?

I feel sorry for anyone in hard times who gets caught breaking the law in order to feed their families. I'd feel sorry for her if she'd walked out of the store with £150 worth of shopping without paying for it and got caught.
Doesn't mean I think she should get away with it, but you can still feel sorry for her.

VT82 wrote: »

And I don't understand why MSE ever advocated trying this ruse (albeit upfront with a cashier) in the first place.

I believe from an MSE point of view it's just a form of haggling. There's nothing wrong with taking your shopping to the till (or to a manager) and asking for a discount. Or asking for extra clubcard points because rather than using your own bags you are using no bags. So nothing wrong with asking if you can use a coupon.
If the store then want to lie to or haggle with their supplier about the coupon that's up to them. That's outside the remit of MSE.

princesslou_2

cocoloco wrote: »

I find this practise extremely disturbing!!!
I wonder if the supermarkets still do this, don't they have anything better to do?

to be honest i believe it to be worse now. You hear stories of the security guards having photos of people from security camera stills (in the DTD days) and keeping tallies of how many DTD vouchers people were spending (in regards to the £100 a week limit). Also someone recently asked to see what infomation mr t had on them (apparently its legal to do so) and when they got their clubcard account details, it had EVERYTHING on it, including notes on how many coupons and vouchers had been given. people were being pulled over and said "you came in tuesday and used till 6 at 2pm, then again on wednesday at....you spent x amount and used x amount of dtd vouchers.". luckily this never happened to me, but it WAS happening so they obviously do keep track of "suspicious" people *waves*.

I think, as well, we have to remember that mr t's is more than just a machine. yes they can log what your spending and what coupons are using (with your debit cards and clubcards in some cases) but also the staff are human. they speak to one another. if you go in using a high amount of coupons, they are likely to pass comment in the staff canteen about "the blonde *whatever* lady used £20 worth today". plus they do notice people coming in and using one till, then going out, coming back in and using another. they're not stupid. so i think you just have to play the game by their rules and manipulate the situation fairly. take what you can but do it by their rules.

im not, by the way, claiming i only ever take 1 of everything and am innocent. i have abused deals and glitches (however im not a fake-name coupon user) but after reading all this i will certainly be more careful what im doing!


OH, and in regards to the "don't they have anything better to do?" question....NO. they are bored lol. a little bit of excitement or biatching about the "coupon lady" that bought 50 dove deoderants and paid 2p for it passes the day quicker. plus, if its a "fake" copied coupon, unilever (or whoever its for) wont pay tesco for it. so lets assume the sainsburys ladys coupons were worth £5 each. thats £145 of rubbish coupons. the manager won't want that going on his record as a loss. and if one is doing it to such a large scale, you can be sure more are doing it on a smaller scale. So if he can weed some of those vouchers out and keep and eye on people, his profits go up, his store looks better, he gets better bonus's and better prospects in the long run. hes protecting himself. i suppose its just like how the corner shop would check your £20 is real before accepting it.