Council Tax Debt Paid but Bailiffs turned up!

HappyMJ

dave0922 wrote: »

After all of this, in theory, we should be left well alone, but, after reading other simillar cases it would appear that these thick skulled idiots still think that they can come and claim their fees. What should we do if this happens? I will definatly call the police, but an they actually charged their visiting fees for a debt that does not even exist anymore?

Just don't answer the door. Don't speak with or correspond with them. They will give up.

dave0922

HappyMJ wrote: »

Just don't answer the door. Don't speak with or correspond with them. They will give up.

I would much rarther make them fully aware that we owe them nothing and that they will get nothing. Do you think that by getting a police presence whilst i am proving to the idiot that there is no debt should do the trick?

Beetlemama

dave0922 wrote: »

This is a debt that was paid off a long time ago. Tommorow we will gather the evidence from the council that this is indeed a paid debt.

Make absolutely sure that he is collecting the actual debt and not their fees for enforcing the collection though, if the case was passed to them as you had failed to pay, they can add their fees on top, if you then make a direct payment to the council, the bailiffs may still attempt to collect their charges even though the actual debt has been paid.

It may well be that the debt was paid to the council but the council did not inform the bailiff that it had been paid, therefore he believes he is collecting a legitimate debt - coming into your property and getting the WP signed was what he is hired to do, did he definately say he was from the court? or say he had a document from the magistrates court? that wouldn't be untrue since you were summonsed and a Liability order was granted - presumably, if you made a special arrangement and paid off the debt.

Your first port of call is to the council, not enraged and yelling though, take it easy and ask them to look at your old account, if they can confirm it was paid, ask them if it was called back from the bailiffs, and tell them you've had an agent round to collect. If it's all paid and should have been called back, they will take it from there and contact Rossendales to recall it and that will be the last you hear, if though there is a sum remaining or a different debt you didn't know/forgot about, then you will need to make an arrangement with the bailiff to pay it, but you should be able to pay monthly, they're pretty ok about that usually.

I have had a lot of dealing with this myself and yelling at the council changes a person who could have helped you in to a person who thinks you deserve whatever you get, seriously, IMHO, it pays to be nice to the person on the phone. I know I've jumped through hoops at work for my nice customers and forgotten the crabby ones before I've put the phone down.

Good luck with it anyway.

HappyMJ

dave0922 wrote: »

I would much rarther make them fully aware that we owe them nothing and that they will get nothing. Do you think that by getting a police presence whilst i am proving to the idiot that there is no debt should do the trick?

No, you could potentially be arrested for breach of the peace. The police are not always on your side. They don't in fact take sides and if you appear in any way aggressive then you get arrested even though you called them to prevent a breach of the peace. So just don't answer the door. They then give up and you never hear from them again.

hallowitch

dave0922 wrote: »

This is a debt that was paid off a long time ago. Tomorrow we will gather the evidence from the council that this is indeed a paid debt.

We will also demand and will refuse to leave the councils offices until they have contacted rossendales and told them to get off our backs
get this in writing you will need it if you have to make a formal complaint if this or another bailiff comes to your door

Then we will take our evidence to the magistrates court where the original liability was filed and report the bailiff in question for gaining access under false identity (magistrates court bailiff).

there is no point in going to the court all they do is issue the liability order the court wont take a complaint about a certificated bailiff this is done by way of a form 4 complaint and is a very serious matter for both the debtor and the bailiff
if the judge finds in favour of the bailiff it can cost the debtor thousands of ££££££££
if they find in favour of the debtor the bailiff can lose his certificated

After all of this, in theory, we should be left well alone, but, after reading other similar cases it would appear that these thick skulled idiots still think that they can come and claim their fees. What should we do if this happens?

I will defiantly call the police, but an they actually charged their visiting fees for a debt that does not even exist anymore?

My lappy not playing the game tonight and i cant get the regulations up

but they say something like(my words not the actual wording )
if the liability order and fees under schedule 5 are satisfied at the time of the levy then the levy wont be carried out

however bailiffs can only levy the amount outstanding against the liability order at the time of the the levy (they cant add there visit fees to the outstanding debt and levy on the total) if there is no outstanding debt then they cant levy your goods if there are fees from a previous attempt to enforce the liability order i would think they would have to take some other form of litigation to enforce the fees outstanding

dave0922

Beetlemama wrote: »

"Make absolutely sure that he is collecting the actual debt and not their fees for enforcing the collection though, if the case was passed to them as you had failed to pay, they can add their fees on top, if you then make a direct payment to the council, the bailiffs may still attempt to collect their charges even though the actual debt has been paid."

He is trying to collect a debt that has been paid with fees added on to the none existent debt!

"It may well be that the debt was paid to the council but the council did not inform the bailiff that it had been paid, therefore he believes he is collecting a legitimate debt - coming into your property and getting the WP signed was what he is hired to do"

This is what I suspect has happened but he has gone the wrong way about things

, "did he definately say he was from the court?"

He told my wife these exact words: "I am from eastbourne magistrates court"

or say he had a document from the magistrates court? that wouldn't be untrue since you were summonsed and a Liability order was granted - "presumably, if you made a special arrangement and paid off the debt."

We made an arrangement with the council to setup a new account for the debt and pay it off monthly, which we did and completed paying end of last year.

Your first port of call is to the council, not enraged and yelling though, take it easy and ask them to look at your old account, if they can confirm it was paid, ask them if it was called back from the bailiffs, and tell them you've had an agent round to collect. If it's all paid and should have been called back, they will take it from there and contact Rossendales to recall it and that will be the last you hear, if though there is a sum remaining or a different debt you didn't know/forgot about, then you will need to make an arrangement with the bailiff to pay it, but you should be able to pay monthly, they're pretty ok about that usually.

I have had a lot of dealing with this myself and yelling at the council changes a person who could have helped you in to a person who thinks you deserve whatever you get, seriously, IMHO, it pays to be nice to the person on the phone. I know I've jumped through hoops at work for my nice customers and forgotten the crabby ones before I've put the phone down.

Good luck with it anyway.

Thanks for the advise, it is all too easy for me to lose my temper at the moment as I beleive all of this to be unjustified and it really has ruined our whole weekend. Besisdes the fact that he really upset our little girl, she is only 8 years old and it was heartbreaking to see her so worried because of this thug. Makes my blood boil just thinking about it.
I will however remain calm with the council to get things sorted swiftly. I wont however be so patient if I ever see this idiot bailiff in the near future, he has got it coming!

HappyMJ

dave0922 wrote: »

Thanks for the advise, it is all too easy for me to lose my temper at the moment as I beleive all of this to be unjustified and it really has ruined our whole weekend. Besisdes the fact that he really upset our little girl, she is only 8 years old and it was heartbreaking to see her so worried because of this thug. Makes my blood boil just thinking about it.
I will however remain calm with the council to get things sorted swiftly. I wont however be so patient if I ever see this idiot bailiff in the near future, he has got it coming!

And a very good reason to not call the police. If they do turn up please just ignore the door. Just keep going about your normal business. If they knock on the window because they see you just wave them off and close the curtain. Don't say a thing.

dave0922

hallowitch wrote: »

if there is no outstanding debt then they cant levy your goods if there are fees from a previous attempt to enforce the liability order i would think they would have to take some other form of litigation to enforce the fees outstanding

This is just it, there has never been any previous contact with bailiffs because as soon as we recieved the liability order we went straight to the council offices and setup a special arrangement with a payment plan which included the court fees. There was never any need to send bailiffs round because we were paying the debt.

So why, 18 months or so later do we get this visit for a debt that does not exiist? Its bizzare!

hallowitch

So why, 18 months or so later do we get this visit for a debt that does not exiist? Its bizzare!

your right its bizzare i wondered if it was a step up from this scam but then the alleged bailiff would need to know that you had council tax arrears at some point
http://www.eastbourne.gov.uk/council/tax/contact-us/scam-warning/
Council Tax Scam Caller Warning


27 June 2011
Some Eastbourne residents have received phone calls from a person saying they are from our Council Tax Team and that they are entitled to a refund.
The caller tells them they have overpaid their council tax or that their property has been rebanded. Unlike our genuine Council Tax Team the caller says they can arrange an immediate refund if the resident provides their debit or credit card details.
This call is a scam. Never give your card details out over the phone to someone for a refund of Council Tax.

RobertoMoir

dave0922 wrote: »

Thanks for all of your replies, it is appreciated.

I cannot see that we have anything here to worry about as the debt is paid and now none exsistent.

I'm not going to defend the bailiffs actions here but I am going to perhaps explain their point of view. And what to do about it.

Firstly and most importantly: You need to speak to the council right now if you have not already. They've issued the LO to the bailiff, presumably in error.

The bailiffs are both trained in general terms and instructed specifically by their council to take the contents of the LO and any further communication from the council as the statements of fact on the case.

The sad fact is that damn near everyone a bailiff visits will claim they don't owe the money for various reasons, so how are they to know which ones are telling the truth, which ones are lying and which ones are honestly mistaken?

dave0922 wrote: »

I am more angry at the fact that this has been allowed to happen in the first place.

If the council have passed liability orders to a bailiff to action in error then you need to direct your anger at the council, not the bailiff. The bailiff is simply doing as they are told once that happens.

That is not to say that the bailiff couldn't have behaved in a more professional way, or that they haven't done anything wrong, by the way, just that their behaviour and the fact they are there at all are two different issues.

dave0922 wrote: »

I am not the type of person that takes this sort of thing likely and if he had have been there when I returned home I would most likely threw the scummy rodent out by his ears with my foot up his backside to follow.

Then you would find that while the police are not supposed to take sides and support the bailiff, they will be very happy indeed to arrest you for assaulting one.

dave0922 wrote: »

He can rest assured that I WILL make him pay for this one way or another.

You need to think about what you want to do and what complaints you need to make and to whom in order to get a result here.

Complaints about the fact the bailiff attended at all need to be directed to the council; at some stage they obtained a court order for the debt and instructed the bailiff to attend and failed to call off the action once the debt was paid (or indeed, passed the debt to a bailiff in error after the debt was paid, which will not look good for the council).

Complaints that the bailiff didn't believe you / your wife that you had paid... well you can complain to the bailiff company and the council about this but I suspect you're on a hiding to nothing. If I'd had a tenner for every time someone told me back when I did the job that their debt was paid when it wasn't paid for some reason, I'd have had enough money to buy myself a moderately sized house.

Complaints about other 'bad' or deceptive behaviour by the bailiff: You have a number of options here. I'm not going to comment on how much of a valid claim you have because I'm honestly not sure based on what I've read (other than the misrepresentation issue) but you have 3 options at this point

1. Complain to the council; the bailiff is their agent and they are responsible for the actions of their agents.
2. Complain to the bailiff company itself - self explanatory.
3. Complain to the court that issued the bailiff's bailiff's general certificate. This is a complaint against the actual bailiff themselves and can see them fined or their certificate withdrawn.

I would suggest using all 3 routes IF you can establish a serious enough complaint; the claim to be representing the magistrates court would do.