'Don't pay your kids tuition fees upfront' Discussion Area

tyllwyd

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

To be fair, none of the changes over the last couple of decades has been introduced retrospectively.

Yes, you are right. But stuff changes - for example, since I graduated, they've abolished MIRAS, raised the pension age, scrapped tax relief on dividends paid into pension funds, raised and lowered income tax rates, introduced and scrapped a 10% income tax band, raised VAT rates, introduced tax credits (which are probably going to change again soon), and are threatening to take away child benefit. If the government in the future decides that they aren't getting enough back out of student loans, they will find a way to raise that money even if it has to be a sneaky backdoor way! I'm not saying there's any answer to it, but it is a long term commitment and it isn't realistic to go into it thinking that nothing can change over the next 30 years.

melancholly

setmefree2 wrote: »

Why would I want to scare people away from going to University? To be honest, if anything I err on the side of thinking the British economy needs lots of gradutes in as many disciplines as possible. I'm all for Golf Management, surf studies, guitar degress, media studies - all the degrees that "academics" laugh at.

That doesn't mean I'm prepared to go along with any old pile of rubbish to achieve that end.

you see i think that inadvertently, your posts are going a long way to achieve the end of putting people off uni...... the loans system won't change now for the 2012. going on endlessly about things that aren't great about it does nothing to help those who are in the middle of UCAS applications. all it can serve to do is put people off. that's what i really don't like about all your posts..... i understand the frustration but there's a time and a place. you come into any thread on student loans about the facts with doom and gloom messages about how awful it is...... people can use the guides on the main site and see what it will cost them. then they can decide if it's worth it. endless comments making the loans system sound worse than it is don't help the situation. send the rants to your MP or to Willetts.

as kayr says, i don't disagree that this loan system isn't what anyone wanted (i have issues above and beyond the costs to students in terms of what this will do to HE as a whole) - but there's a time and a place. this is the time to explain what the situation is. not to derail every thread with rants about how this is all awful and student loans are the worst kind of debt possible (which they're not!).

(and kayr - i know smf2 isn't trying to control her kids financially, but she was vigorously defending a parent who was trying to do just that. as it seemed like an odd position defend, i interpreted it, not unfairly, as just being an objection to anything posted by me...)

setmefree2

melancholly wrote: »

you see i think that inadvertently, your posts are going a long way to achieve the end of putting people off uni...... the loans system won't change now for the 2012. going on endlessly about things that aren't great about it does nothing to help those who are in the middle of UCAS applications. all it can serve to do is put people off. that's what i really don't like about all your posts.....

melancholly I am a parent of a 2012 student that's why I post here. Why are you here?

Is this thread called the "Don't put people off going to Uni thread"? Have I missed something? :cool:

By the by. I have no trouble with your views...if you wanna be all happy clappy about the 2012 student loan system that's fine with me. If you think it's just dandy that students on £21k+ will pay a marginal tax rate of 41%, I'm fine with that too. You think it is a price worth paying. I get it.

On the other hand, if you think I'm gonna get all happy about what's going on with SLs, that ain't gonna happen. Or if you wish I'd just push off and let you have the field all to youself, well hey, that ain't gonna happen either!

Oldernotwiser

setmefree2 wrote: »

melancholly I am a parent of a 2012 student that's why I post here. Why are you here?

Is this thread called the "Don't put people off going to Uni thread"? Have I missed something? :cool:

By the by. I have no trouble with your views...if you wanna be all happy clappy about the 2012 student loan system that's fine with me. If you think it's just dandy that students on £21k+ will pay a marginal tax rate of 41%, I'm fine with that too. You think it is a price worth paying. I get it.

On the other hand, if you think I'm gonna get all happy about what's going on with SLs, that ain't gonna happen. Or if you wish I'd just push off and let you have the field all to youself, well hey, that ain't gonna happen either!

I think you're missing the point.

People don't necessarily disagree with you but you're offering no alternative except for wealthy parents to fund their children's education or for young people not to go to university. As the former is a total impossibility for the vast majority of people and there is little alternative for the latter option for many students, all you're likely to be doing is scaring young people and their parents who have few other options.

Other posters have suggested positive alternatives like studying abroad, apprenticeships and sponsorships and all you've done really is try to baffle people with your facility for manipulating figures and try to cow people with your self assurance that your children are going to have seamless dazzling futures, leaving all normal graduates in their wake.

Most of us who've been arguing with you are in favour of widening access to university, particularly to those who have no prior experience of HE and for whom a degree may well be the only route out of a stifling existence of dead end jobs. You seem to think that university is only for students with wealthy parents and the capability of becoming higher rate tax payers before they're thirty.

Perhaps you don't realise how you come over to other posters but I have to say that you come over to me as incredibly elitist, unbearably smug and totally out of touch with the experience and financial situation of the vast majority of normal parents and graduates.

melancholly

setmefree2 wrote: »

m
By the by. I have no trouble with your views...if you wanna be all happy clappy about the 2012 student loan system that's fine with me. If you think it's just dandy that students on £21k+ will pay a marginal tax rate of 41%, I'm fine with that too. You think it is a price worth paying. I get it.

On the other hand, if you think I'm gonna get all happy about what's going on with SLs, that ain't gonna happen. Or if you wish I'd just push off and let you have the field all to youself, well hey, that ain't gonna happen either!

if you think i'm being happy clappy then you're massively missing the point. your point has been made. over and over again. the system isn't as good as it used it be. but you're stuck with it, so let's focus on explaining the WHOLE of the system and what the costs and benefits are rather than just focussing on all the aspects that aren't as good as they used to be.

i don't see what you're achieving right now apart from scaring people off (on any thread you can! if you want to keep one thread to are more campaign style, that would make sense. launching into any and every thread about the loans system with how terrible it is doesn't offer any alternative apart parents paying the lot. i can't see that as helpful, especially since many of your posts have errors or misrepresentations in them). i really hope you can see that point. because while you continue to post excessively negative points about 'what ifs' and how it should all be changed, some of us are more interested in making the reality clear.

we're stuck with this system so it's all about making the best of it. that's what matters right now. as i've said before, send the rants to your MP; don't try to put off every student from going to uni. plenty of school leavers won't find uni is right for them (or that they are right for uni), but that decision shouldn't be made based on how much money their parents have to spend on fees. that would be a tragic outcome.

setmefree2

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

People don't necessarily disagree with you .

Really? I'm amazed! WOW!

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

but you're offering no alternative

OMG we're finally going to be "allowed" to talk about alternatives to the SL system! Another WOW!

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

except for wealthy parents to fund their children's education or for young people not to go to university.

I've never said either of those things. By the way, we are on a thread about paying fees upfront presumably the people on this thread at least see that as an option. If that offends you don't read this thread!

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

all you're likely to be doing is scaring young people and their parents who have few other options.

I thought you and melancholly were on this board to "educate" and "inform" students? It appears to me that you only want to tell them half truths.... "not in front of the children now dear"

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

and all you've done really is try to baffle people with your facility for manipulating figures and try to cow people with your self assurance that your children are going to have seamless dazzling futures, leaving all normal graduates in their wake.

Aw shucks, personal attacks that's more like it....and by the way I've never said anything of the sort

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

Most of us who've been arguing with you are in favour of widening access to university, particularly to those who have no prior experience of HE and for whom a degree may well be the only route out of a stifling existence of dead end jobs. You seem to think that, unless students with wealthy parents and the capability of becoming higher rate tax payers before they're thirty.

Excuse me, I thought I was on a MONEY SAVING web site! I had no idea I'd wandered on to the forum of the National Union of Lecturers or whoever you are.

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

Perhaps you don't realise how you come over to other posters but I have to say that you come over to me as incredibly elitist, unbearably smug and totally out of touch with the experience and financial situation of the vast majority of normal parents and graduates

Oh dear. More personal attacks. (and in fact might even warrant a click on the abuse button but luckily for you I can't be bothered.)

You know what's really funny is, I've been posting on MSE for years and I've never had anyone attack me like you do. So I'm gonna take it that your comments say more about you than they do about me.

setmefree2

melancholly wrote: »

if you think i'm being happy clappy then you're massively missing the point. your point has been made. over and over again. the system isn't as good as it used it be. but you're stuck with it, so let's focus on explaining the WHOLE of the system and what the costs and benefits are rather than just focussing on all the aspects that aren't as good as they used to be.

i don't see what you're achieving right now apart from scaring people off (on any thread you can! if you want to keep one thread to are more campaign style, that would make sense. launching into any and every thread about the loans system with how terrible it is doesn't offer any alternative apart parents paying the lot. i can't see that as helpful, especially since many of your posts have errors or misrepresentations in them). i really hope you can see that point. because while you continue to post excessively negative points about 'what ifs' and how it should all be changed, some of us are more interested in making the reality clear.

we're stuck with this system so it's all about making the best of it. that's what matters right now. as i've said before, send the rants to your MP; don't try to put off every student from going to uni. plenty of school leavers won't find uni is right for them (or that they are right for uni), but that decision shouldn't be made based on how much money their parents have to spend on fees. that would be a tragic outcome.

I'm on a thread discussing whether parents should pay student fees upfront. I have no idea what thread you think you are on?

And by the way, I'm not posting on any other thread on the Student Money Saving Board other than this one, so stop trying to malign my character. It's low.

If you have arguments to refute mine why don't you make them instead of just slinging insults?

If the truth is scary then that's not my fault.

What do you want us all to do? Stop discussing whether we should pay tuition fees upfront?

And melancholly why don't you tell us what you do?

(oh and a few capital letters might be nice - they were invented to make reading easier don't ya know - but no pressure! In your own time.)

Oldernotwiser

setmefree2 wrote: »

Oh dear. More personal attacks. (and in fact might even warrant a click on the abuse button but luckily for you I can't be bothered.)

You know what's really funny is, I've been posting on MSE for years and I've never had anyone attack me like you do. So I'm gonna take it that your comments say more about you than they do about me.

I fail to see how that could be construed as a personal attack, particularly as , in the past, you've accused others on here as having an personal agenda and a vested interest in getting students into university.

A simple comment as to how your posts come over to me is not an attack but accusing people of giving advice and information with personal ulterior motives certainly is. Nobody's maligned your professional integrity as an accountant in the way that you've maligned the professional integrity of others.

setmefree2

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

Perhaps you don't realise how you come over to other posters but I have to say that you come over to me as incredibly elitist, unbearably smug and totally out of touch with the experience and financial situation of the vast majority of normal parents and graduates

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

I fail to see how that could be construed as a personal attack.

Sadly, that is probably true.

setmefree2

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

particularly as , in the past, you've accused others on here as having an personal agenda and a vested interest in getting students into university.

A simple comment as to how your posts come over to me is not an attack but accusing people of giving advice and information with personal ulterior motives certainly is.

You know what, I just want to talk about whether parents should pay tuition fees upfront. That's what this thread is about. The posters that come on this thread are largely going to have a little bit of money. Now if that offends you 'cos the can't stand people who you perceive as being wealthy, then maybe you should stop reading this thread?