Do we always need to ask for a person's SOA?

seven-day-weekend

traceyaec wrote:

Really daft question from a newbie what's a SOA?

Statement of Affairs.

See the sticky post by Southern Scouser at the top of the page for an example.

rainbowrisin

fishface-69 wrote:

umm...this is an interesting one and actually quite emotive as I have felt on occasion that some people didnt feel that I was serious about my debt because I refused to post an SOA.
Its a very personal thing & I have been able to see where I can cut down, done a spending diary, changed utilities etc without ever posting one! I would only tell people close to me the exact numbers of my finances and I find it a bit odd that people happily share the minute details of their finances on the internet, where anyone can read them!
That said I am able to recognise that it can be helpful for some. What I find unhelpful is when some can be quite negative toward those who choose not to post an SOA & I know that the level of invasion been quite off putting for some!
People can get help without posting an SOA and what is important is that people feel supported when they're here. Most people who initially post are scared sh@tless and dont need to be scared even more by those who consider that getting rid of everything you enjoy is the only way to get out of debt. You feel a failure enough already without feeling even more so by those who imply that you're a failure if you dont follow every suggestion...
Sorry didnt mean to rant but I do know of people who have actualy left the site because they were made to feel so bad by some people here and thats a real shame because they really needed support with their debt...none of us are perfect and perhaps accepting and valuing the various way to tackle debt would generally make people feel supported. Part of that is accepting that some people will not want to post an SOA and also that for some it is not appropriate professionally to do so!

I think that's a very fair point. TBH I've been absolutely disgusted with some of the abuse posters get when they reveal details of their income and expenditure - clearly if people have debt and are also spending OTT on luxuries then restraint needs to be applied, but equally we're all human and it's not on to be-little a poster because they dare to spend on something other than the bare essentials.
I also think that sometimes we can be quite a scarey lot - some people on here are really, really frugal (:j ), but to a newbie DFW at first sight reading that people manage a household on £10 a week or whatever just makes them feel worse. I do think that we need to reinforce more the message that it's usually better (and far less demoralising) to cut household / luxury expenditure gradually, and save the more drammatic cost-cutting for utility switching, credit card switching, car insurance switchingand so on.
I sometimes think it might be worth having "non-negotiable, no comment required" on bits of a SOA which a poster knows isn't an absolute necessity, but for whatever reason they need / want. Perhaps a heading of "private consumption", so that whatever it is (crisps, ciggies, the lottery, sky, thunderbird:eek: , CDs, brand name washing powder:D ) remains private ringfenced expenditure. I'm pretty sure people could still help with all the other bits, and perhaps in time when they get to know us better, the OP might wish to share more details of the "private consumption" bit - maybe on other threads.

scaredy_cat_2

rainbowrisin wrote:

I sometimes think it might be worth having "non-negotiable, no comment required" on bits of a SOA which a poster knows isn't an absolute necessity, but for whatever reason they need / want. Perhaps a heading of "private consumption", so that whatever it is (crisps, ciggies, the lottery, sky, thunderbird:eek: , CDs, brand name washing powder:D ) remains private ringfenced expenditure. I'm pretty sure people could still help with all the other bits, and perhaps in time when they get to know us better, the OP might wish to share more details of the "private consumption" bit - maybe on other threads.

we are unprepared to stop our 2 children's swimming lessons - i can't remember the figure but just under £400 a year and we won't stop that and it was the thing that several people suggested getting rid of

rainbowrisin

...and I also think that would mean the OP wouldn't have to "defend" their expenditure on the non-essential. I think it's absolutely humiliating to have to justify why you dare to have sky or eat chocolate when you're in debt.

rainbowrisin

scaredy_cat wrote:

we are unprepared to stop our 2 children's swimming lessons - i can't remember the figure but just under £400 a year and we won't stop that and it was the thing that several people suggested getting rid of

Excellent example, scaredy cat. Swimming lessons are clearly a non-essential which (i think for excellent reasons) you choose to keep. I think it's fair for other posters to suggest it could be considered for sacrifice, as it was posted in a SOA, but equally I would be very sad if anyone took you to task over a decision to keep the lessons going - that's what I mean, if it was just labelled "private consumption, non-negotiable" then the question wouldn't even have been raised.

kathfisch

I think its perfectly acceptable to have a 'treats' or 'me' section on an soa, at a reasonable level. Obviously what is reasonable will differ between people.

People (me included ) seem so worried about justifying their spends but its not other dfws that we need to justify it to, its ourselves. We can, after all, simply not tell the truth about what we've spent!

The aim is to pay off our debts and be free of them. Sometimes I think people lose sight of this and instead think 'why do these mean dfws want me to give up sky/chocolate/the gym?!'. Of course we don't want anybody to have to compromise on anything they want but surely not depriving ourselves is what got many of us into this mess. Not knowing the difference between want and need.

I think what's needed is a combination of confidence from posters of SOAS and understanding from those who make suggestions. Because suggestions are all they are, to be acted on or not, and none of us will ever be any the wiser!!

kathfisch

rainbowrisin wrote:

Excellent example, scaredy cat. Swimming lessons are clearly a non-essential which (i think for excellent reasons) you choose to keep. I think it's fair for other posters to suggest it could be considered for sacrifice, as it was posted in a SOA, but equally I would be very sad if anyone took you to task over a decision to keep the lessons going - that's what I mean, if it was just labelled "private consumption, non-negotiable" then the question wouldn't even have been raised.

But if we labelled everything that was non-negotiable without mentioning what it is for, there'd be very little left of some SOAs, and it would be like admitting that the rest could be cut out!

I don't have a problem if someone says 'I spend x amount on so and so and I will not consider stopping this', its just up to us to offer advice on those areas where they want it. Equally though, sometimes people need their motives questioned (nicely) for them to realise that all those 'essentials' are not really essential at all and are holding them back from being debt free.

Sammz

I have to say no, sometimes an SOA is not needed after the first question someone asks. It was the first thing I was asked for but not something I was willing to provide. I know I have cut down on all I can and I knew I should've been paying more off. Just needed the incentive to do it!

In_Search_Of_Me

Just to clarify...I dont object to people making suggestions on SOA's - thats why they're posted after all! The aim is to pay off debts but we'll all go about that differently..I would just like to see a bit more tolerance/less judgement on those of us who choose to pay off debts over a bit longer with a bit more breathing space! We shouldnt have to feel that we should lie just because some wont like the fact that we've spent some money!! We do have to compromise on things we want - lets face it we wouldnt be where we are now if we had done so in the first place but one mans sky is another mans night out....its about making positive changes to reduce our debt and supporting each other on the journey and respecting each others way of doing that. I think its great that some people can be 100% disciplined in paying off debts and applaud you, honestly, but thats just not me! The changes I've made since last April have been incredible and thats enough for me (& my family/friends who encourage me!) but I am left feeling at times that some are tutting and thats a real shame. Nt so much for me because I am a strong assertive person who can stand up for myself but for those who are more gentle, sensitive this is very discouraging & I think goes against the whole ethos of the board & this is why I feel really strongly about it!
Also in my case I've never posted an SOA so how would the people that disaproove know what I can/cannot afford anyway?!! Noone knows my salary/income/outgoings so I'm being judged (along with others) but without any basis behind it IYKWIM? ...

edited due to even more appalling spelling than normal!!

rainbowrisin

kathfisch wrote:

But if we labelled everything that was non-negotiable without mentioning what it is for, there'd be very little left of some SOAs, and it would be like admitting that the rest could be cut out!

I don't have a problem if someone says 'I spend x amount on so and so and I will not consider stopping this', its just up to us to offer advice on those areas where they want it. Equally though, sometimes people need their motives questioned (nicely) for them to realise that all those 'essentials' are not really essential at all and are holding them back from being debt free.

hmmmm sort of IMHO. I think the problem with questioning motives is that all too easily it becomes a "value judgement" issue. Everyone spends on non-necessities, and we could all cut back more if we tried. I would suggest that most DFW are clear about what the non-essentials are, but for whatever reason choose at the present time to hang on to them. From what I've seen on some threads "motive questioning" swiftly turns into berating and value judgements - somewhat along the lines of "well we manage with using electricity for one hour a week and eating only every two days and we LOVE it...and if you aren't prepared to live like us then you're a flawed individual and obviously don't want to be debt free enough";)
Obviously the more detail there is in an SOA then the more help people can give, and I appreciate there are a lot of nice posters who do very gently point out that maybe some non-essentials could be curtailed. That said, I would humbly suggest that even with a limited SOA some good advice could be given, and perhaps when the OP had made some initial easy changes (utilities, ccs, better internet / mobile phone package or whatever) they MAY wish to look at other areas.
I am a very frugal person, and sometimes I do look at some SOAs and am amazed at what people spend their money on. That said, I think that's up to them. I just try and offer any helpful advice on the bits I might know something about....