a refusal to give change...

wellers

hi guys,

i'm a very rare visitor but I was wondering if any of you sharpminded moneysavers would have an opinion on something that occurred to me today as I got the bus to campus (the cycle route was all flooded).

When I say bus I actually mean these brand new things called 'FTR' that first transport have introduced into York. Quite apart from the extortionate rate at which the prices increase (with little regard to inflation) these brand spanking newly built and recently launched vehicles have, to my mind, questionable morals.

They have machines and they refuse to give change.

Now, I wonder about the legality of this. They charge £1.50 single, £2.50 return but insist on the correct coinage.

Now, that's all very well if they haven't got the change but today I didn't have any change, there was no way I could get hold of any and so I was forced to pay £2 for my one-way journey to campus. This was made worse by the fact I was getting the bus with my housemate and we neither of us had change so thought we'd get two tickets in one go for £3. That's not possible.

So he decided to walk (as I was paying for him anyway). It would have meant that our £3 journey cost £4. I don't know how many people use the 'ftr' in a day but it seems to me that this getting money by dubious means is tantamount to theft?

After all, it's brand new equipment that's specifically designed NOT to give change. It smells fishy to me...

What do you think?

marty1888

thats the system they have in America aswell.

If you dont have the correct change then its just tough luck im afraid.

Altarf

When you are buying something it is your obligation to pay the amount you have agreed for the goods or services. There is no legal obligation for the supplier to give you change if you cannot pay the exact amount you agreed.

This applies whenever you buy anything. If you offered a £20 note in a shop for your £5.65 groceries then they have no legal obligation to give you any change. They do because otherwise they would spend all their time arguing with the few customers they did have, but if this is what they decided to do there is nothing you could do about it (other than pay the right money or go elsewhere).

Buses can do this as they have a monopoly on the service, and if you don't like it then your only option is to walk, cycle or drive. You cannot normally choose another bus that does give change.

The reason the buses have these automatic machines is for ease and security. Drivers don't need to be trained in cash handling and you don't need to pay them to cash up at the end of their shift, and the driver doesn't have access to the cash so it is harder for it to be stolen.

The bus company would argue that the machines don't give change as it would be more expensive to to install a 'change giving machine' and everyone knows that they need exact money, but you can bet the 50 pence overpayments figure in the financial calculations, although you would never get the bus company to admit it.

wellers

bah, theyve got it all sussed out.

they're putting the prices up. now it's going to be £1.60 single, £2.80 return.
that's awkward amounts of change.

the swines.

it is just as well that the flood waters have receded and i can cycle again.

Nytehawk

wellers wrote:

hi guys,

i'm a very rare visitor but I was wondering if any of you sharpminded moneysavers would have an opinion on something that occurred to me today as I got the bus to campus (the cycle route was all flooded).

When I say bus I actually mean these brand new things called 'FTR' that first transport have introduced into York. Quite apart from the extortionate rate at which the prices increase (with little regard to inflation) these brand spanking newly built and recently launched vehicles have, to my mind, questionable morals.

They have machines and they refuse to give change.

Now, I wonder about the legality of this. They charge £1.50 single, £2.50 return but insist on the correct coinage.

Now, that's all very well if they haven't got the change but today I didn't have any change, there was no way I could get hold of any and so I was forced to pay £2 for my one-way journey to campus. This was made worse by the fact I was getting the bus with my housemate and we neither of us had change so thought we'd get two tickets in one go for £3. That's not possible.

So he decided to walk (as I was paying for him anyway). It would have meant that our £3 journey cost £4. I don't know how many people use the 'ftr' in a day but it seems to me that this getting money by dubious means is tantamount to theft?

After all, it's brand new equipment that's specifically designed NOT to give change. It smells fishy to me...

What do you think?

Some of these automated machines operate just to take as much money from you as they can (A bit like the way Martin describes banks to us). Many vending machines operate the same principle, because the profit margin is phenomonal. Just to give an example the mechanisms that don't give you change costs the supplier approx £250, the changegivers can easily cost more than 7 times that cost, and often some of the less complicated versions of changegivers have to be filled by operators to ensure that sufficient coinage is availble as change

gwapenut

Altarf wrote:

When you are buying something it is your obligation to pay the amount you have agreed for the goods or services. There is no legal obligation for the supplier to give you change if you cannot pay the exact amount you agreed.

But what about the dubious morals of not allowing the two people combined to pay £3 for two tickets? ie Insisting on them both paying £2 per £1.50 journey.

The two people combined have the correct fare. You may argue it's not acceptable for strangers, but surely a family can expect to pay as one combined group?

Altarf

gwapenut wrote:

But what about the dubious morals of not allowing the two people combined to pay £3 for two tickets? ie Insisting on them both paying £2 per £1.50 journey.

The two people combined have the correct fare. You may argue it's not acceptable for strangers, but surely a family can expect to pay as one combined group?

I don't think that it is morally defensible at all, and in fact I think that it stinks. However is it legal, quite possibly. The company's conditions for offering its service may be that each individual must pay the correct fare.

Equally possible is that the bus driver was 'confused' and it may be possible to pay as groups. An email to someone more senior in the bus company may result in a different story.