Student fees - studying in Europe. Its cheaper - but where can you find information?

Oldernotwiser

2sides2everystory wrote: »

Further to Oldernotwiser's apparent assertion, whilst many graduates of any discipine right now in 2011 might be happy with a job of any kind in the current recession, surely ONW cannot be suggesting that 17 and 18 year olds should be sifting university courses in a way which could result (if they have the stamina to absorb so much theory having had so little practice) in them just being churned out the other end as malleable minds fit only for administrative jobs? What else other than management consultancy or specialists in change management, or perhaps slick marketing and advertising can they be good for? Maybe they would take a bolt on Engineering or Law module at the end? Then they could perhaps become facilities managers who know in any office where the aircon sucks in and where it blows out, or HR managers who know a bit about how to hire and fire in any industry before recruits get too settled?
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You are so disparaging about the sort of jobs that the majority of graduates would give their eye teeth to do!

We have nearly 40% of the age group going to university (quite wrongly, in my opinion) so what else are they going to do if not admin?

melancholly

actually, i was thinking about this and uni league tables do a pretty good job of trying to include appropriate information - they aren't at all like school league tables which are all about grades achieved. the guardian ones take info from the national student survey (so feedback from current or recent students), staff/student ratios, money spent per student, employablity etc (i don't look at the times any more since they started charging). there will be flaws in whatever calculations they use as there is no prefect way to calculate these types of things... but i have to say, they do a pretty good job of giving the whole picture.

2sides2everystory

Voyager2002 wrote: »

You have made some bizarre statements on this thread, and have demonstrated that you are incapable of distinguishing between prejudice and authoritative information. That does not provide a firm basis for making important decisions.

We live in bizarre times. I don't claim to be someone who sails easily through them, just someone who doesn't tend to endure the hype exactly as it is spun. Your own tendency to ridicule surfaces again by calling my statements bizarre.

If you work(ed) for and with universities in several countries then you may indeed have an inside track on what's what. That makes you pretty unique as a parent, but in turn you remain aloof and have clearly demonstrated that you believe that parents like me are more of a hindrance than a help to those that need to make important decisions.

There may actually be rather more of us out here than you think - not so bizarre as me of course, but just as clueless in your book perhaps if they baulk at the spoon-fed tables your industry (?) is offering them.

Fact is no one on behalf of the state is committing to provide the expert assistance that our 17 and 18 year olds really require in order to make proper buying decisions. Most universities are in sales mode right now, busily adjusting grade offers and points to put maximum bums on what may in practice prove to be rather boring lecture theatre seats, and grotty accommodations. These courses are being sold to people who have mostly never earned any significant money of their own but are being asked to spend it like they were buying a house.

At the rate of pay most 16 or 17 year olds receive if they are lucky enough to have part-time jobs they would actually have to save every penny from working full time for four years to spend on three years tuition alone at university. An impossible nonsense if you have taught your kids to save up for things they desire. Of course anyway they can't ever work full time and earn enough to pay any real part of their HE costs because they are at school so these important decisions you refer to are just a confidence trick played on gullible minds.

We don't know what topic you chose for your PhD thesis Dr V2002, but the only definite conclusion an outside observer might make about all this is that Westminster's decision to sell England's university education down the river has led directly to the dawn of the biggest financial mis-selling scandal of our times. Does your experience and allegiance allow you to concur with that sentiment?

So back to this thread's original topic, rather than letting thousands of young people sleepwalk right into this student loan scam, and then seeing them wake and try to punch their way out of being harnessed to a graduate tax, it might be preferable if the more enterprising of them could take a good long look at all the alternatives.

Perhaps they should indeed be considering something refreshingly simple that isn't a thirty or forty thousand pound rip-off e.g. a free or nearly so HE course offered within a more enlightened European society. Sure it might cost more to live, especially if you can't cook but at least you are living and not sleepwalking.

The other benefits of a brave move like that may mean that engaging with all that such a course entails will enable a student to develop a more balanced philosophy free from the distraction of our ugly short-sighted politics and get rich quick or fail type thinking.

atypical

2sides2everystory wrote: »

Do you know anything about Adecco, Man and Citi, ONW? Are they outfits you reckon our kids should aspire to work for?

Citi is well respected and has a major international presence. Man Group is one of the largest hedge funds around and is listed on the FTSE100. Adecco is equally well respected and is part of the Fortune Global 500.

Plenty of people aspire to work at these places. Having them on your CV would only do you good.

melancholly

2sides2everystory wrote: »

If you work(ed) for and with universities in several countries then you may indeed have an inside track on what's what. That makes you pretty unique as a parent, but in turn you remain aloof and have clearly demonstrated that you believe that parents like me are more of a hindrance than a help to those that need to make important decisions.

only when they repeatedly make posts ridiculing other opinions where it suggests that they don't want to hear other opinions.... that is a hindrance. there is a big difference between parents wanting to find out information to help their children and those who just plain refuse to accept that other people can give help...... only when they post long rambling rants about people being asleep or sheep or sleepwalking where there is clearly an axe to grind with no real interest in finding out and considering other opinions........

2sides2everystory

Well the same old usernames keep coming up in these threads about 2012 Student Loans - it suggests a few people have an axe to grind that's for sure

Voyager2002

2sides2everystory wrote: »

Well the same old usernames keep coming up in these threads about 2012 Student Loans - it suggests a few people have an axe to grind that's for sure

Maybe ...

Or maybe people post about subjects they know well and find interesting.

2sides2everystory

Voyager2002 wrote: »

Maybe ...

Or maybe people post about subjects they know well and find interesting.

Higher Education sold down the river - 'interesting' you say?

Maybe you know this subject well enough to be able to tell us what is wrong within it, for example why some universities sell grotty student accommodation for £5,000 a year, and others now are authorised to charge treble and sell tuition at £9,000, because apparently they need and are worth the money but then they give back £3,000 pa to the elite ?

Yes, interesting is one word for it.

melancholly

2sides2everystory wrote: »

Higher Education sold down the river - 'interesting' you say?

Maybe you know this subject well enough to be able to tell us what is wrong within it, for example why some universities sell grotty student accommodation for £5,000 a year, and others now are authorised to charge treble and sell tuition at £9,000, because apparently they need and are worth the money but then they give back £3,000 pa to the elite ?

Yes, interesting is one word for it.

well you're assuming that those people involved in teaching courses are even remotely involved in other aspects of the student experience... which wouldn't be fair. i know from various alumni magazines how much it costs to have a student for a year and it's certainly a lot more than £9K. in reality, with central government funding, unis have always said that the costs are in that ballpark - this isn't a change in their opinion, more an opening up of the debate to the public.

this discussion has been done to death, but student fees pay for (and this is just a short list off the top of my head):
administration
finance
procurement
security
cleaning
student services
careers service
library facilities
maintenance
IT facilities
counselling service
accommodation office
student union
sports facilities
food services
heating/lighting

the vast majority of the money goes no-where near the people teaching the courses (and in fact most academic members of staff think it's a joke - especially with the addition of FEC to grant applications).

now there is certainly room for a debate about how essential all of these services are and also, how well they are promoted amongst students as many are chronically under or over-used. but they contribute to whole of a uni experience. there may be room for cuts but uni is more than just studying a course. i'd like to hope that an interest in learning is the priority, but the plethora of opportunities available at uni is part of what makes it great.

i think you need to separate the issues a bit more as they're all blurring together. the cost of a university education is one issue. the nature of the student loan agreement is another. suggestions of dumbing down of higher education are also separate. the specifics of argueably poor accommodation in some unis is entirely unrelated to government plans for higher education financing.

by shifting the arguement from one issue to the other, it muddies the water and also can be disruptive as most of the issues are set in stone; no amount of angry threads on MSE will change them. (but i've certainly taken the time to write to my MP and engage in trying to change the process and i know a lot of people have).

the same people pop up on all the threads on this board. i'd like to think that's because some of us have the experience, time and inclination to help other people through the uni system. the same is true of any MSE board - people give advice on what they know about.... which is sort of the point of the forums as far as i see it.

but in many ways i do have an axe to grind - it frustrates me to see people perpetuate myths about student finance or university systems. whether that be the perennial misguided complaints about student loan interest and HMRC or what processes to follow to complain about a course. student finance is a particular flash point and unfortunately, universities directly have been very poor at communicating where the money is spent. i'd like to hope that threads on here can only help by adding more information by those who have seen universities from both sides.

in terms of student fees 2012 threads and the usual suspects coming up, you're as guilty as anyone else in repeatedly posting a very partisan point of view. i think it's in everyone's interest to see all points of view to make up their own minds. i've certainly shifted my view on a graduate tax in recent weeks after lots of interesting points from posters on this board. being able to see other viewpoints, understand them and take them seriously, and then perhaps post different interpretations/conflicting information is far better than dismissing out of hand anyone who doesn't whole heartedly endorse your view. that's a wider issue than MSE forums as well!

The_One_Who

Melancholly: says it so you don't have to.