Reclaiming PPI from Natwest... But they've lost my original signed contract!!

Alex.T

Hi guys and girls.

Thought I'd introduce myself first before I get into my 'story'!

My name is Alex, I currently live in Elstree, Hertfordshire. I'm 25 years old, currently unemployed and have suffered with debt issues (and overspending) since the age of 18.

For the past few years I have closely followed many of Martins money saving and money making tips and have found them immensely useful. Amazing website and full credit to Martin and all others involved.

A couple of years ago, I tried bank charges reclaiming, using the very helpful guide on here. Unfortunately I was slightly too late, as the case went to court, and charges were deemed to be lawful, but too high? So I unfortunately gave up on that one!

I did have all of my debts consolodated with one financial management company (Byrom and Keeley) I was happily paying them £x amount per month for a good few years, safe in the knowledge that they had kept the debt collectors off my back. But having looked into each of my creditors, I soon realised, the amounts owing on each of the statements was well out compared to what was actually owed. I did find Byrom and Keeley were quite poor at keeping me in the loop and sending me up to date statements. I spoke to each of my creditors directly and soon realised that I could pay them directly and still have the interest amount frozen until the amount owed was fully paid up. Plus I wouldn't then have to pay Byrom and Keeley their fixed percentage fee per month too! Happy days! Just wished I had realised sooner! Live and learn!

Now, since I have become unemployed within the last few months, it has become even more imperative for me to be more careful with what little savings I did have and also, suffice to say, try and lay my hands on any money which I felt I may be due.

So, a few months ago, I started the process of PPI reclaiming on a loan I took out from Natwest back in 2004 (approx). Being a nieve 18 year old with a passion for fast cars, I spent alot of money on buying and doing up my cars. I built up debt on credit cards and took out loans to pay them off and buy more things. I was very silly, but just happy to have the money, not thinking of the consequences, nor checking over the paperwork when gleefully signing my name to get my money. :-(

I was able to keep up with repayments for a little while, but soon became overwhelmed by the interest as I was only making minimum payments. This was when I consolodated off my my debts with Byrom and Keeley, including Natwest owings (the loan and my current account overdraft) which was passed onto Wescot Credit Services, a debt collections agency that I assume Natwest sold my debt to. Wescot are now currently one of the creditors I pay directly along with Capital One, Egg, Natwest Credit Card and CL Finance.

My first port of call was to write to Natwest requesting a copy of my original signed paperwork for the loan, along with the terms and conditions of the plan. I did this, and enclosed a cheque for £1 to cover costs of sending me these documents. A month past, (during which my £1 cheque was cashed) - still heard nothing. I chased it up and was sent a letter saying 'thanks for your complaint, we are looking into it.. etc etc' Another month past, still nothing, so I rang to chase. I was told they were trying to locate my paperwork and would get back to me asap. I was told that with it having being moved to Wescot, they were having trouble sourcing any paperwork for it. But surely Natwest are meant to keep any paperwork (especially anything signed) for a minimum of 10years??

A couple of days ago I received a letter from Natwest stating that the have been unable to source the necessary paperwork that I requested. Meaning they have no trace of anything concerning the original paperwork? But they also said they were organising for statements from my current account to be sent to me showing that I received the benefits of the loan. I'm assuming they mean; 'we have no proof that you signed the loan paperwork, BUT we do have proof that you reaped the benefits of £x amount loan from us.

I do not argue that I didn't receive the loan from Natwest, as it would be quite evident that I did once it is shown on the current account statements and the fact that it would show that I paid repayments for that loan for however long after that.

My question is firstly, where do I stand with that loan now that they can't find original paperwork relating to it. Is it worth me argueing something to do with that?

Secondly, what do I do about the reclaiming of PPI charges? I do have some paperwork at home relating to this loan, and it does defintely have alot of figures all over it (£Loan amounts, of which £x is insurance, £x is interest etc) but I'm no good with numbers and figures and have no clue where to start. I definitely do not rememeber being told about anything to do with insurance when I took the loan out, nor would I have realy needed it, as I probably had a very favourable credit rating back then, as I was young and kept up to date with all payments on other credit cards etc.

I really would appreciate any help with this, and I hope I can claim something out of Natwest, even if whatever payment I did get from them had to go towards paying Wescot to clear my current outstanding debt.

Sorry for the long read!

Many thanks

Alex

amersall

Hi there and welcome.
They dont have to provide you with the original agreement,only a copy.

You have the account number for the loan,and as you say,the ppi is on there,so put a claim in for mis sell,the account number is all you need.

Look here for reasons for mis sell.
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/ppi-loan-insurance#step2
If any/all apply to you,then go through Natwest complaint procedure,you can either telephone,call in or do it online.
https://www.natwest.com/secure/global/contact_us/complaints_procedure.htm

Give them 14 days to respond and keep us posted.

Alex.T

Brilliant, thanks for the reply.

I think what they meant in the letter was that they didnt have a copy of the original agreement that I signed, so couldn't even tell me as to wether I signed up for PPI. I'm going to grab the bits that I do have and post up a bit of the information from that. Surely if they dont have any type of signed document from me, then they have no arguement as to wether it was misold or not, and they would have to payout?!

Thanks for the links too. Very helpful.

amersall

Alex.T wrote: »

Brilliant, thanks for the reply.

I think what they meant in the letter was that they didnt have a copy of the original agreement that I signed, so couldn't even tell me as to wether I signed up for PPI. I'm going to grab the bits that I do have and post up a bit of the information from that. Surely if they dont have any type of signed document from me, then they have no arguement as to wether it was misold or not, and they would have to payout?!

Thanks for the links too. Very helpful.

Hi,you have paperwork for this loan,and it has ppi on,just send a copy of this with your complaint and reasons for mis sell,that is all you have to do.
Even if they cannot find a copy of your agreement,you have paperwork regarding this.

Alex.T

I'm not entirely sure its the original loan paperwork. It may have been when I increased the loan amount,for example from £6k to £8k. I moved addresses soon after and have never been very good with keeping paperwork. It definitely has the words insurance on it, so I'm assuming this is PPI? As soon as I get home I'll post up the info that is on it.

amersall

You could put a copy of this and explain this may have been when you increased the loan,they should still look at this for you.

Alex.T

So having just got off the phone to the dedicated Natwest/RBS PPI complaints department. Telephone number: 0161 755 6890 if anyone is interested. I explained what I had already sent them and how they had come back to me saying they had no paperwork there. They told me I didn't infact need to do that, as by ringing them direct they have looked into all of my Natwest accounts and have seen that all four of the loans I took out between 2004 and 2006 (one original, three increasing the amount) had PPI on them. He then said all I needed to do was answer one question to get a complaint in motion. That question was something along the lines of 'why do you have a complaint regarding ppi'? To which I answered 'I felt I was mis-sold ppi as I do not remember being told the benefits of taking it out, nor would I have even needed them if I was told'.
He also asked me if I was given two different repayment options (each time we started a new loan). One with the ppi on, one without the ppi. Again I told him that I did not recall being asked this, as I only remember being told one figure.
So my complaint has now being received by them and I will receive a confirmation letter stating this with 5-10days and further contact (maybe an offer/outcome?) within 12 weeks.
So I definitely had PPI on those loans, feel I was mis-sold it, and also I dont think Natwest will be able to prove otherwise seeing as they have already told me that they have no paperwork their end already?!

amersall

This is good news,fingers crossed you hear soon and that it is a win.

magpiecottage

Alex.T wrote: »

My name is Alex, I currently live in Elstree, Hertfordshire. I'm 25 years old, currently unemployed and have suffered with debt issues (and overspending) since the age of 18.

Okay - unfortunate but you were a grown up at 18 so, unless you were obviously not of sufficient mental capacity to enter into a loan contract there really is only one person to blame.

I did have all of my debts consolodated with one financial management company (Byrom and Keeley) I was happily paying them £x amount per month for a good few years, safe in the knowledge that they had kept the debt collectors off my back.

So your creditors were getting back rather less than you had originally agreed to pay them.

Now, since I have become unemployed within the last few months, it has become even more imperative for me to be more careful with what little savings I did have and also, suffice to say, try and lay my hands on any money which I felt I may be due.

I'm sorry to hear that you have lost your job but it is hardly the fault of your creditors.

So, a few months ago, I started the process of PPI reclaiming on a loan I took out from Natwest back in 2004 (approx).

Could you not have claimed on the policy?

Natwest owings (the loan and my current account overdraft) which was passed onto Wescot Credit Services, a debt collections agency that I assume Natwest sold my debt to.

They may have sold the debt or simply appointed Wescot to recover as much as they can.

Natwest are meant to keep any paperwork (especially anything signed) for a minimum of 10years??

Which piece of legislation do you have in mind? I cannot think of any.

My question is firstly, where do I stand with that loan now that they can't find original paperwork relating to it. Is it worth me argueing something to do with that?

No - both a court and the Financial Ombudsman Service would almost definitely decide, on the balance of probabilities, that you had borrowed the money and you were liable to repay it.

what do I do about the reclaiming of PPI charges?

Well you are over the first hurdle because it seems NatWest has found that PPI did exist.

I definitely do not rememeber being told about anything to do with insurance

That you do not remember is not the same as it not happening. I do not remember being born but my Mum tells me I was (apparently she was there at the time!)

when I took the loan out, nor would I have realy needed it, as I probably had a very favourable credit rating back then

Your credit rating has nothing to do with whether or not you need PPI. The question is whether you need it to protect your ability to meet the repayments if you fall ill or, as has happened, lose your job.

Given your current circumstances, it seems that their WAS a definite need.

I hope I can claim something out of Natwest, even if whatever payment I did get from them had to go towards paying Wescot to clear my current outstanding debt.

I think the one basis on which a complaint might fairly be upheld is if you were sold a single premium policy and that premium was added to the loan. Even then, they could reasonably argue that you should, instead have had a monthly premium policy which would reduce the value of any redress due.

It is also likely that any redress would then be used to reduce the outstanding debt in the first instance. It would boil down to a case of "because we missold you are £X worse off but we are £Y worse off because you haven't paid us as you promised to - so we will set one off against the other".

Alex.T wrote: »

So having just got off the phone to the dedicated Natwest/RBS PPI complaints department. Telephone number: 0161 755 6890 if anyone is interested. I explained what I had already sent them and how they had come back to me saying they had no paperwork there. They told me I didn't infact need to do that, as by ringing them direct they have looked into all of my Natwest accounts and have seen that all four of the loans I took out between 2004 and 2006 (one original, three increasing the amount) had PPI on them. He then said all I needed to do was answer one question to get a complaint in motion. That question was something along the lines of 'why do you have a complaint regarding ppi'? To which I answered 'I felt I was mis-sold ppi as I do not remember being told the benefits of taking it out, nor would I have even needed them if I was told'.
He also asked me if I was given two different repayment options (each time we started a new loan). One with the ppi on, one without the ppi. Again I told him that I did not recall being asked this, as I only remember being told one figure.
So my complaint has now being received by them and I will receive a confirmation letter stating this with 5-10days and further contact (maybe an offer/outcome?) within 12 weeks.
So I definitely had PPI on those loans, feel I was mis-sold it, and also I dont think Natwest will be able to prove otherwise seeing as they have already told me that they have no paperwork their end already?!

Alex.T

magpiecottage wrote: »

Okay - unfortunate but you were a grown up at 18 so, unless you were obviously not of sufficient mental capacity to enter into a loan contract there really is only one person to blame.

Obviously, as you have to be 18 to get a loan, wasn't ever doubting that.... Nor was I blaming anyone else for my situation. The whole point of PPI reclaiming is for the people that was mis-sold (which it was, as it wasn't offered to me) to get the money back that they paid unwittingly, no?!

magpiecottage wrote: »

So your creditors were getting back rather less than you had originally agreed to pay them.

They would be getting back what I originally borrowed from them, less the interest, so yes in theory. But I did pay a couple of years interest bearing.

magpiecottage wrote: »

I'm sorry to hear that you have lost your job but it is hardly the fault of your creditors..

Please point out where I blamed my creditors? As I said, I feel and so do most people reclaiming mis-sold PPI, that the money we paid towards PPI was unlawfully taken from us, hence we are reclaiming what is rightfully ours. Which if I'm not mistaken, the financial ombudsman also backed up?!

magpiecottage wrote: »

Could you not have claimed on the policy?.

Claimed on the PPI you mean? Come on think about it will you! As I said above, the debt was sold to a debt collections agency. So I doubt very much the PPI would still be available to use? Surely its just one lump sump (including the PPI amount) that Natwest sold Wescot? Secondly, even if I did want to claim on the PPI, I didn't know the loans had PPI on them until today. I was mis-sold it, remember?!..... :doh:

magpiecottage wrote: »

They may have sold the debt or simply appointed Wescot to recover as much as they can.

Obviously...... Maybe I should appoint someone to collect what I am owed from Natwest then??? Do you think I should add interest?...

magpiecottage wrote: »

Which piece of legislation do you have in mind? I cannot think of any.

Sorry, I'm not in a position that I could comment on anything like that. I'm not an IFA, nor do I claim to be... But surely something as important as borrowing thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of pounds should be documented/filed for a minimum amount of time. Anyone with common sense could probably see that. In shops I've worked in, receipts for your £10, £15, £20's had to be kept for 6years, minimum.

magpiecottage wrote: »

No - both a court and the Financial Ombudsman Service would almost definitely decide, on the balance of probabilities, that you had borrowed the money and you were liable to repay it.

Again, I'm no IFA, but I'm going to disagree with you there. Theres nothing like hard (paper) evidence. Its just like saying, "well cos' I couldn't find his paperwork, I assumed he wanted to borrow £25k"... You probably know as well as I do, if not more, that assumption/guessing is the mother of all duck ups....

magpiecottage wrote: »

Well you are over the first hurdle because it seems NatWest has found that PPI did exist.

Yep.

magpiecottage wrote: »

That you do not remember is not the same as it not happening. I do not remember being born but my Mum tells me I was (apparently she was there at the time!

Being mis-sold PPI includes not being told the features and benefits of taking out PPI. I don't remember being told about it, so I said 'I don't remember being told about it'... Maybe if I say that to the court/financial ombudsman you mentioned above, it'd stand up.... :-s

magpiecottage wrote: »

Your credit rating has nothing to do with whether or not you need PPI. The question is whether you need it to protect your ability to meet the repayments if you fall ill or, as has happened, lose your job.

Being an IFA, you should probably know already that another way PPI was mis-sold was the representative for the lender would tell the client that by taking PPI out, they would have more chance at succeeding in their loan application. I mentioned nothing about needing/opting for PPI when I said about my credit rating. Infact I said, considering my credit rating was probably very good, as I was young and had kept up to dates with all other loan/credit card payments. So that would have gone in my favour when applying for a loan.

magpiecottage wrote: »

Given your current circumstances, it seems that their WAS a definite need.

I originally applied for the loan over 7 years ago. I've had four jobs since then. Nobody ever thinks they are going to become umemployed (through redundancy might I add).. Some of us also have back-up finances, and redundancy payouts to help them through. So I still wouldn't have needed to claim on a PPI policy that I had no clue about and which have probably cost me a fortune in the long run anyway.

magpiecottage wrote: »

I think the one basis on which a complaint might fairly be upheld is if you were sold a single premium policy and that premium was added to the loan. Even then, they could reasonably argue that you should, instead have had a monthly premium policy which would reduce the value of any redress due.

I'm sorry I do not understand this, I do not have sufficient mental capacity......

magpiecottage wrote: »

It is also likely that any redress would then be used to reduce the outstanding debt in the first instance. It would boil down to a case of "because we missold you are £X worse off but we are £Y worse off because you haven't paid us as you promised to - so we will set one off against the other".

If you mean what I think you do there, then my response is: I have no issue in using whatever amount I get from reclaiming my unlawfully mis-sold PPI, to pay towards my outstanding debts with Natwest (as I still have an outstanding credit card debt with them) or Wescot to pay the old Natwest loan/overdraft off.

You might think that most people are jumping on the bandwagon with the PPI reclaiming. I am not one of them, nor do I think anyone else is. We are merely reclaiming what is rightfully ours, as it was unlawfully mis-sold to us in the first place...


Lastly, Do you work for Natwest? I seem to have hit a nerve I feel??