Greedy council refuses to refund fines wrongly issued

Lum

It is a simple database search, any fine issued by camera X between dates Y and Z, cancel the fine and issue a letter advising of such.

However that assumes a competent database and competent staff who know how to use it. In practice these systems have been put in by outside contractors and while such a facility may well exist in the software if there isn't a written procedure for it, by which I mean written to the level of "Click the start button in the bottom left, all programs, CrappyBusLaneDB, go to the file menu, click search which is the 7th option down...." then the facility may as well not exist.

Personally I wonder how some of these people manage to wipe their backside without a written procedure, but that's the way it is. It probably is easier and cheaper to go through the appeals process for every single fine.

Ghostrider

Lum wrote: »

It probably is easier and cheaper to go through the appeals process for every single fine.

My point exactly.

I wonder OP - Are you after advice on how best to deal with this or are you just having a rant?

spikyone

Ghostrider wrote: »

My point exactly.

I wonder OP - Are you after advice on how best to deal with this or are you just having a rant?

Sorry Ghostrider, but you're talking absolute rubbish. People from outside the area would not necessarily know they'd been fined incorrectly - there will be photo evidence showing them driving in the bus lane.
Equally, people from outside the area would be unlikely to read an article in a local newspaper that says people have been wrongly fined.

These people have been fined because the council made a mistake. If I make a mistake in my job, I own up and I fix it, and if that means putting in extra hours to do so, then so be it.
Trotting out the "it's too expensive" line is no excuse, the council have wrongly charged people and it's up to them to sort it. Easier and cheaper has nothing to do with it, this is about fairness and the difference between right and wrong. Whoever set up this diversion without turning off the camera should be sorting it out unprompted. Making no attempt to return money taken without correct authority is theft, pure and simple.

vax2002

The main reason for this post is in hope that some of the victims of this fraud who were visiting Bradford may stumble upon this post and realise that they have been had by the council, as visitors to a national attraction will have been hit there is a very good chance that the majority may have only visited Bradford on that day .
Bradford council are refusing requests on how many drivers were fined but it is estimated to be in the thousands.
as this is a national website and this information could potentially save those affected hundreds of pounds in increased insurance costs alone then the link to the evidence I felt was worth posting.

Ghostrider

spikyone wrote: »

Sorry Ghostrider, but you're talking absolute rubbish. People from outside the area would not necessarily know they'd been fined incorrectly - there will be photo evidence showing them driving in the bus lane.
Equally, people from outside the area would be unlikely to read an article in a local newspaper that says people have been wrongly fined.

These people have been fined because the council made a mistake. If I make a mistake in my job, I own up and I fix it, and if that means putting in extra hours to do so, then so be it.
Trotting out the "it's too expensive" line is no excuse, the council have wrongly charged people and it's up to them to sort it. Easier and cheaper has nothing to do with it, this is about fairness and the difference between right and wrong. Whoever set up this diversion without turning off the camera should be sorting it out unprompted. Making no attempt to return money taken without correct authority is theft, pure and simple.

Why don't you read what I said before making such a retort!

I agree with the principle and no doubt all of those comments are correct, BUT it won't change anything. I was tryng to HELP the OP find the easiest solution to the situation that casued the least bother and expense for them.

People outside the area will know because they would have realised they'd driven in the bus lane through being diverted, unless of course they are driving with their eyes closed or have absolutley no awareness of their surroundings in which case it serves them right. However, thats why I asked the question to the OP in order to understand if they were after advice on the issue or whether it was a rant to let others know.

Don't get up on your high horse at me pal because i'm here to help too - just because people don't like hearing the truth doesn't mean it's not help or correct.

I love it how you can try to genuinely help some people on MSE and yet if you're comments aren't what they want to hear they stick them up at you - charming.

spikyone

Ghostrider wrote: »

Why don't you read what I said before making such a retort!

I did read what you said. The fact remains that I disagree with it.

Just because people realised they were diverted through a bus lane doesn't mean that they will realise the fine they have been issued with was for driving through that particular bus lane. If anything, because they were sent through a bus lane by an official diversion sign, they'll be more likely to think they were fined for being in a completely different bus lane. They probably don't know the names of the streets on which they drove either, so the charge notice will be meaningless.
The chances of someone outside the area appealing are slim, and the council stands to profit from this. To say that it "serves them right" if people don't realise they've been wrongly fined isn't particularly sympathetic.

I felt it was clear from vax's original post that s/he hadn't been hit with a fine, and you seemed (and still seem) to be defending the council's inaction - I find their stance immoral.

spikyone

In fact Ghostrider, I've just looked at some of your other posts, on the parking fines board. You're a perfect demonstration of someone who is hit with an official-looking "fine" (in your case just a speculative "give us your money" letter) and feels duty-bound to pay it. This is exactly what will happen with these bus lane fines - people will feel like they're probably in the wrong and feel morally obliged to pay. This is exactly the reason the council should be pro-active.

Ghostrider

spikyone wrote: »

I did read what you said. The fact remains that I disagree with it.

Just because people realised they were diverted through a bus lane doesn't mean that they will realise the fine they have been issued with was for driving through that particular bus lane. If anything, because they were sent through a bus lane by an official diversion sign, they'll be more likely to think they were fined for being in a completely different bus lane. They probably don't know the names of the streets on which they drove either, so the charge notice will be meaningless.
The chances of someone outside the area appealing are slim, and the council stands to profit from this. To say that it "serves them right" if people don't realise they've been wrongly fined isn't particularly sympathetic.

I felt it was clear from vax's original post that s/he hadn't been hit with a fine, and you seemed (and still seem) to be defending the council's inaction - I find their stance immoral.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but these forums are normally people looking for help and advice, but I appreciate the OP was looking to notify others, it wasn't clear from the original post.

Thats why I asked the question to the OP in the first place.

As I keep saying I agree (hence please read my posts) that the councils attitude is immoral and wrong, I never defended them, i simply suggested the easiest way to solve problem in view of the way the Councils operate - without realising at that time the OP wasn't even affected by it and didn't even want advice.

Lum

I should probably clarify something about my last post, given the responses.

I was not trying to defend Bradford council, just explain the though process behind it. I actually agree with Spikyone.

Is it a points offence for driving in a bus lane. I didn't think it was (I've never been fined for driving in one) but if it is then this is even more of an argument for them owning up and doing the right thing due to the knock on effects of points e.g. increased car insurance, bans under totting up and the increased costs and possible job losses that come with the latter.

I'd be happy to have a look at their database, I've never seen it before in my life but I'm sure I could figure it out in half a day. I'd want paying of course

DaveF327

You do not get penalty points for bus lane offences. Nor will it affect your insurance.