PCN Poor Signage? Do you think I have a case?

Inflatable_Armadillo

Well, having just started to post on this forum about PPC's, I go and get myself a real PCN!

I got it today while parked in a car park near the Galpharm Stadium in Huddersfield. As I pulled into the car park I looked at the sign and saw (or so I thought) that the Charges were Monday - Saturday 8.00am - 6.00pm. As it was a Sunday, I got out of car and headed to the Stadium to watch the game as I was late and it was only 10 mins to kick off!

I returned to find a PCN on my car for not display a valid ticket! I checked the sign, this time very carefully and noticed that right at the bottom, under the Monday to Saturday charges, they have added a sign saying Sunday 12 noon - 6pm £1. !!!!!!, I thought, I have been genuinely caught out and kicked myself for not taking a more detailed look. However, when heading back to the car I noticed that quite a few, I spotted around 5 others, had PCN's too (and the car park was emptying fast after the game) and as I got to my car, a Huddersfield Giants fan said to me that they always catch loads of away fans out, since they added this to the sign and started charging for parking a couple of years ago!

Here is the sign!



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So, the background is that the council started charging on this car park a 'couple of years ago' (according to my Huddersfield friend) and it is purely aimed at charging people who use the car park for the stadium for the Rugby League, as Huddersfield Giants generally play at home on a Sunday at 3pm (unless the game is on Sky). Hence the reason for the very specific Sunday hours!

Now, this is a genuine error and as it is only a £1 to park, had I understood, I would have paid the pound and put a ticket in the car. I initially thought I had been just careless, but the other tickets and the fact the Hudds fan saying they get 'loads' of away fans given tickets makes me think that the sign is just not clear enough? Well, let me put that another away. I think because of what the sign says first, people drive in and see the first text under charging and with it being a Sunday they, like me, don't see the added bit at the bottom about charging on a Sunday.

The Hudds fan said that he thought they employed a warden just for Sunday match days only and they check that car park without fail on match days. He even said, I bet they don't check it on Sunday's when there is not a home match on, even though the charges are for all Sundays!

This got me thinking, this car park is a little remote for shoppers but clearly gets used by City Centre workers during the week and Huddersfield Town fans when they play at home on a Saturday. I suspect that if I was to submit a freedom of information request and ask how many tickets they have issued on the Sunday's this year when Hudds are at home, on the Sunday's when they are not playing and during the working weeks, in the same period, for not displaying a valid ticket, I suspect that they have probably hardly issued any EXCEPT on the Sunday's when Hudds are at home, when they issued at least 5 that I saw!

I also thought asking them, again, under a freedom of information request, if they only employ a warden on days when they know Hudds are at home on a Sunday!

I feel I have made a genuine mistake and I was not trying to avoid paying! I also suspect that Kirklees Council know exactly what the situation is and, a little like the private parking company's, don't care and know they are catching people out, primarily the away fans who don't know the car park, and treat this as a revenue generating opportunity.

Yes, the sign does say that you have pay on Sunday's but is that sign clear enough?

So, what do you think, should I appeal or I have just been a numpty for not looking more clearly at the sign... if so, there are quite a few numpties out there!

Thanks in advance for your help and advice.

Coupon-mad

First rule of being a PCN fighter, I think, is always to appeal any Council PCN, whatever the reason for issue, even if you are bang to rights!

In this case I agree with you, I looked at that sign and the first clear piece of info that jumped out at me was 'Charges Monday - Saturday'. Obviously they SHOULD have changed that part to 'Monday - Sunday' if they wanted it to be clear...

I can quite understand why you did not read the charges, why would you look further if it clearly says that in white lettering on the blue background (like the main sign lettering). An addition in red on white background is less eye-catching and is more easily missed (that's a fact, that's why motorway signs use blue & white).

You could indeed do that FOI request, why not, but keep it separate from your appeal. Never ask for FOI stuff in a PCN appeal as they can delay the response which can jeopardise your chances to continue with appeal within the deadline and/or pay at the discounted rate (but paying is a last resort!).

I see you have also posted on pepipoo - please update here when they help you win!

peter_the_piper

Take a visit to council and check out the Parking Place Order (PPO) for that car park to see if they have correctly started charging. The document should be available to view without FOI.

HAD29

Coupon-mad wrote: »

First rule of being a PCN fighter, I think, is always to appeal any Council PCN, whatever the reason for issue, even if you are bang to rights! - Why? If you have clearly and evidently committed a crime, and plead not guilty, is that not wrong?

I can quite understand why you did not read the charges, why would you look further if it clearly says that in white lettering on the blue background (like the main sign lettering). Because it is your responsibility to ensure you have read all the Terms and Conditions before entering into the car park, not just the ones that suit you.

An addition in red on white background is less eye-catching and is more easily missed (that's a fact, that's why motorway signs use blue & white). May be a fact (I am colour blind, so makes no odds to me), but I don't think colour is a mitigating factor. It is clearly legible.

vax2002

The only parts not valid is about parking on access roads, these would need to be marked in accordance with regulations, a sign telling you not to park on roads beyond that sign outside of the car park has no authority and the other roads need seperate regulation orders and their own signs.
The other one Expiry time not clear, you are not responsible for the councils printing machine.
You best defence is as said to pull the TRO order and see if it is valid.
other than that the penalty is enforceable unless someone can pull something regarding the charging for sunday been in a separate box, the sign is a little ambiguous with sunday not listed in the large text .
Any appeal to the council will be auto ejected, the ombudsman can use opinion on the clarity of the sign.
Now, they may not want a judgement on this because if the ombudsman agrees with you they would have to refund all that ask, so they may offer no evidence at the second appeal so you win by default.

esmerobbo

Why? If you have clearly and evidently committed a crime, and plead not guilty, is that not wrong?




Bang to rights or not no "Crime" has been committed!;)

HAD29

esmerobbo wrote: »

Why? If you have clearly and evidently committed a crime, and plead not guilty, is that not wrong?




Bang to rights or not no "Crime" has been committed!;)

You are right, my apologies to Coupon-mad. I didn't express the objection correctly. I was trying to convey that I am not a fan of the just claim even if you know you are in the wrong mentality.

Coupon-mad

I know, and I understand where you are coming from in pretty much every other situation in life.

But when you go on pepipoo forums as much as some of us do (every day in my case) you would know how likely it is that the Council have made errors almost every single time. And I happen to believe that Council errors are, on balance, worse than an individual motorist's mistake* since the former is a public body run with public money - it should display exemplary procedure and behaviour but it never does!

And it's not just errors, it's actions as well. When you read about the underhand tactics of some Council CEOs, pretending to have issued PCNs, and the shockingly dismissive rejection letters their colleagues then churn out to try to make people give up and pay, you may start to take the view that the Council is the worst offender in most cases. And if it means sometimes appealing on a technicality then sobeit, that's what pepipoo is about.





*as long as they have not parked dangerously - for instance I am not very supportive of those who have been caught in the daytime partly on zig zags beside a school or pedestrian crossing, or plonked at a bus stop.

Inflatable_Armadillo

HAD29 wrote: »

Coupon-mad wrote: »

First rule of being a PCN fighter, I think, is always to appeal any Council PCN, whatever the reason for issue, even if you are bang to rights!

Coupon-mad wrote: »

- Why? If you have clearly and evidently committed a crime, and plead not guilty, is that not wrong?

I can quite understand why you did not read the charges, why would you look further if it clearly says that in white lettering on the blue background (like the main sign lettering). Because it is your responsibility to ensure you have read all the Terms and Conditions before entering into the car park, not just the ones that suit you.

An addition in red on white background is less eye-catching and is more easily missed (that's a fact, that's why motorway signs use blue & white). May be a fact (I am colour blind, so makes no odds to me), but I don't think colour is a mitigating factor. It is clearly legible.

Hmmm, I think that someone needs to climb down off their high horse a little don't you!!!

What I did is make a mistake and a very genuine one at that. It was a quid to park and for not paying a quid I have got a ticket for £25 which of course will go up to £50. I have never used the car park before, it is in town I visit probably once a year at most and as council run car parks often don't charge on a Sunday, then upon seeing the sign as I drove in (the signs are well positioned) and seeing the primary information of CHARGES - MONDAY TO SATURDAY, I didn't read further and parked up and jogged out of the car park.

The primary issues you seem to be missing are that firstly, I admitted I didn't buy a ticket, and that I am just asking for advice... I thought this is what these type of forums were for. Secondly, I fully explained how I made my mistake but equally and the biggest point I am making is that 4 other cars (that I saw) appeared to have made exactly the same mistake. So, while you are right about it being my responsibility to check, Kirklees Council have an equal responsibility to ensure that their signs are totally clear and that is the bit I am thinking of contesting.

I think you have to admit that the sign could be better, by actually saying Charges Monday to Sunday or even 7 Days a week, that sign would be improved significantly. The issue here is, is that in 2004 Kirklees started charging on a Sunday in this car park when previously it was free. So what did they do, they stuck a new sign over a bit of existing sign, which I suspect, used to say "Free on Sundays" but this bit is the final piece of information about charging.

Now, does the sign give the information that they charge a £1 for parking on Sunday, yes! Does the sign do this well, debatable but I would say not well enough! If you had to replaced the who sign for some reason, would Kirklees write the sign in the same way... I think it is a given that they wouldn't and it would be much better written and obvious.

So am I going to appeal, when I am fairly certain I will lose that appeal? Maybe, if when my FOI request comes back and it shows (I strongly suspect) that they issue a disproportionate number of PNC for failure to show a valid ticket on Sunday's when Huddersfield Giants are at home on a Sunday, than at any other time. Lets then see what the adjudicator has to say. That said, I have e-mailed the Operations Manager at Kirklees and told him that the sign should be changed to make it clearer and stop and future mistakes by law abiding people... lets see what he has to say!

Coupon-mad

You are unlikely to lose your appeal IMHO. Honestly, the odds are in your favour and pepipoo will help you to word your appeals and to quote statutory regulations and successful adjudications which support your argument.

You will probably get rejection letters from the Council though - because they can! - but it's the adjudicator's decision that will count if you call the Council's bluff and carry on. You only risk possibly being told to pay the full fine (non-discounted) in the end if you actually lose at adjudication. No costs, nothing else as long as you meet your deadlines and do not ignore any letters.

HAD29

I am now down from said horse.