Probate question

getmore4less

A few thoughts from a position of being involved in a couple of estste

How can you be sure there is no IHT when you don't have all the accounts/income yet?

The IHT 205/400 must have had estimates to obtain probate.

The funeral costs will be estate debts, if allready paid then the debt is to those that paid.(might get them interested)

Pensions, HMRC should probably have records.

tracing things you as executor you can trace their pensions and other accounts

Hope you got extra copies of the letters of admin

Tracing the funeral directors:

if there was cremation then there is a requirement for 2 extra doctors, probably the the same ones are used by a lot of funeral directors.

if died in a home it is on the death cert(I don't think certified copies time out) as place of death so you can go to them.

they will have a "regular" undertaker if no morgue and the trace starts there, they cannot pass onto another without the relevent forms.

Who registered the death?

Ask the home how the bills were paid and for a final statement for the estate, also you need the personal effects including any cash(as executor you need to account for this) so if they have been taken by some one else who?

They should have a record of everything at time of death.

Rememebr DPA does not apply to dead people(places use this to say no) and as executor the courts have given you permirssion to act.


I think I would be going back a few years on all accounts if you suspect foul play.


Who are the benifitiaries are they involved?

What is the estimated total we are dealing with?

If there is an suspect look for ways to investigate around them.

Mail is an issue so now idea how you find out if that is being redirected.

PCDIMWIT

Hi, Atush has hit the nail on the head, the reason I did not have the POA is that an elder relative who lives in the same area as the deceased was the holder of the POA, I live at the other end of the country, the deceased's estate needs to be split 3 ways to 3 remaining nephews and niece of the person who died. The eldest one did have alot to do with the relative who was in the care home, even managing their estate before the relative became too senile and was admitted to residential care, I have only taken on the probate and with "estimated" amounts for the funeral and estimated assets of the deceased (well below Inheritance tax threshold as there was no property involved and we dont think the deceased had savings anywhere near the limit of Inheritance tax). I got the probate letters of administration last week based on this info. But given the laziness of the elder family member who had the POA, I obvioulsy want to get to the bottom of the EXACT deposits and all transactions for at least 6 months prior to death of the relative. Without making accusations it is VERY FRUSTRATING because the elder relative who had the POA is reluctant/will not give me full details of the funeral director, even the name of the care home the deceased died in. I was not at the funeral of the deceased so dont even know where the crematorium was (I believe it was a cremation). Obviously with all the help from previous people here like Tabbycatsmum with info. over Capita Heartshead for finding out about the Civil Service Pension that was not being paid into the current account which I know about - the State pension WAS being paid into this current a/c that I know about. I cannot see that ALL the deceased's Civil Service Pension was being paid directly into the account of a care home - I dont think that is legal - is it?? As far as I am aware all council's send out monthly bills for either home care or residential care?? Should I apply to the local council's registry office for a certified death certificate? even having the Letters of Administration for Probate, I cannot find out where the deceased actually died from the Letters of Administration? if it is on the Certifed Death Certificate I am sure I can then approach the care home and find out the last statement of account and how the care home was being paid?? And if the Care Home had had the deceased assessed for receiving all the extra benefits like cold weather payment, attendance allowance, etc., that would diminish the actual monthly charge for the care home. Thanks PCDIMWIT

PCDIMWIT

Hi Atush, in your message you say:-
It may (or may not) help us to know why you weren't the POA holder if her closest relative (and executor) as there could possibly other educating paperwork filed by the POA person?

My elder family member has the POA on the deceased but surely the POA stops IMMEDIATELY that the person dies? what "educating paperwork" could they have filed - prior the the relatives death? - my elder family member claims that they paid for the funeral out of their own account (???) Hence I used their "estimate" for the probate, but they are not forthcoming as to the the EXACT amount they paid for the funeral or supplying a final invoice from the funeral director......., I know there are National Savings Certs involved at the very least but this matter of not having the EXACT invoice for the funeral and all FINAL deposits (and earlier transactions from about 6 months prior to death on the statements of deceased's accounts) mean that I cannot get a final figure for the amount of the estate - as to personal goods there were none as relative was in a care home and I dont believe there was any jewellery or valuables worth pursuing. Thanks PCDMWIT

atush

I would start with the death certificate. If it was in the home it will say, and if in the local hosipal they will knwo where the care home was and who they relaesed the body to. All of which you can get as executor.

From them you can trace the bank accts.

It is like being a dectective, start from what you know and can have acess to as executor, and then trace your way out/back. Most can be done from your computer and phone but a visit to her local town could help later.

Have you contacted the HMRC for copies of the last few years tax returns? They might have something of use.
In any case, this is all caused by the relative as they have obviously taken the personal effects and perhaps local accts to pay for the funeral and to pocket the rest for their own exspenses/use. You may be able to get mroe out with some 'honey' as you can tell them you have to have all the facts and figures and documents so as to effect probate and after all they might be 'due' somehting if they overspent. If that doesn't work you willhave to involve the law but you will get there in the end. There is no way they want to go to joil, so just force it out of them by trheat of law if yo have to. But firswt I aould find out as much as you can.


What about the obits? They are in the local papers and they say who the funeral home is.

PCDIMWIT

Thanks for that, I think I will need at least two certified copy death certificates, I have already 10 copies of the Probate letters of administration, There is DEFINITELY at least 1 bank account I dont know about, I dont think the estate will be HUGE, but its probably going to be about 20k. the deceased was in this care home for some years and that would gobble up all of her state and civil service pension but the person, elder relative who did have the POA is very reluctant to tell/send anything, the funeral costs MUST have been taken out of deceased relatives account but as far as I was aware the POA lapses on the MINUTE the person you have a POA for dies?? therefore I cannot see ANY BANK allowing a POA holder to withdraw a substantial amount AFTER the persons death. The elder relative who had the POA knows that they would have had to get a Probate letters of adminstration to Execute the deceased's intestate estate but has done nothing, and now I, the younger, have applied for the probate and got the letters of administration. I think as you say, I will HAVE to get the certified copy death cert. and take it from there. The Capita Hartshead civil service pension company will tell me the details of the deceased's civil service pension when I send a copy of letters of adminstration and which bank it was being paid into. I really need basically to know THIS bank account and trace back the statements for at least 3-6 months PRIOR to relative's death. and those links that someone else sent for the banking industry funded FREE online lost and dormant account enquiries might reveal something when I apply there. As you say, I know its going to be like "detective work" but the elder relative who had the POA is VERY VERY CLEVER and without being outwardly obstructive is very sharp in just ignoring all my emails and contact, I have thought of sending a solicitors letter but they will know I would have to back it up with expensive litigation to force their hand and even then I dont think there is legally much that can be done - without spending a fortune that is!! - there is something not right here......., Thanks PCDIMWIT

atush

I might be inclined to a look at all the accts the POA holder had acess to for since the date of the POA. They may have already cleaned out the bank accts prior to death. They have done something they should not for sure, as they as so unwilling to give you any details. They may have in fact given the relative a pauper's funeral by saying there was nothing left?

Anyway, the death cert and a visit to the local council offices should turn up a lot of what you need to get going.

PCDIMWIT

Hi, I think there was a proper funeral/cremation, I seem to remember it being discussed, I thought the POA holder could ONLY move money around in the deceased's NAMED accounts (I have a POA document not yet enacted but the solicitor told us - joint attorneys if necessary - that we can ONLY transfer money into the person's OWN NAMED accounts to make it easier to have ready cash to use for unforeseen expenses, but we can ONLY draw money from that persons account and any large amounts can be questioned by the bank/court of protection) Anyway is it possible to get all details of the Power of Attorney since it was set up for the deceased's administration? and if so how would I do that?? approach the court of protection?? I dont know exactly WHEN the POA was drawn up but it was some years prior to the deceased's admission to a care home. I think there are alot of things that have been done legally or otherwise on the deceased's administration, but of course I havent found all the accounts/care home fee's/deposits/funeral bills etc., yet. Thanks PCDIMWIT