Is it worth me challenging my parking ticket?

Mindless_Clone

Hi there, long term forum lurker but this is my very first post so please be gentle with me.

I got my first (and last, hopefully) parking ticket (pentalty charge notice) today. Boo hiss. The situation is this.

I parked in a small (and largely badly kept) Local Authority controlled car park near my local shops.
The car park was, until very recently, free for the first hour then a charge of something like 30p per hour thereafter, maximum stay 3 hours.
Up until now, the sole machine in the car park only issued a ticket if you actually put money in it - in other words, if you were there less than an hour, you can't even get a ticket out of it so you just parked up ticketless, stayed no more than an hour and this was fine... oh blimey I suspect there's folks reading and thinking "I know what comes next"...
Anyway, the car park has always had the usual yellow "Pay and Display" notices up and T&Cs on the machine despite the fact it has never ever issued a ticket for the first free hour.

Today I parked there -and noticed they had changed the fee scale - it is now free for the first 30 minutes and £1 an hour thereafter maximum 3 hours. Not a problem as I am never there more than 30 minutes. I was stupid really because it never even occurred to me that I should see if I now need a ticket. I just assumed it was as before... yeah yeah never assume, lesson learnt I suppose. I just parked, took my grieving nephew to the cafe (we'd just been to have his dog put down hence the need for a nice cup of tea and a sit down) and came back 25 minutes later to a penalty charge notice for failure to display a ticket. I was confused as I thought I'd overstayed but, no I checked and I hadn't... Lo and behold I press the ticket machine and it now issues tickets even if you don't put money in! Doh! I could kick myself really.

So, basically the council have changed fee scale, made it so you need to have a ticket for the free period (when you didn't previously) but haven't actually advertised this. However, previous to this, they didn't advertise you didn't need a ticket for the first hour - you just never got one if you tried to request it from the machine. There is no change to any of the signage except a plate stuck over the fee scale on the machine.
Seems a bit, well, yes, unscrupulous to me. I wonder how many other people have been caught out? :mad:

What I'd like to ask your advice on is, do I have a good case to appeal? And if I do, will I ultimately win? To be honest, it's only £30 if I pay it in the first 14 days so hardly going to break the bank... I could do without the hassle if it means I'm going to go through appeal, lose and end up paying the full £60. But I do feel like making a point, really.
I feel like sticking a big sign on the machine (like the one I'm sure they simply forgot to put there, huh) to warn others.

Thanking you in advance for any advice you can provide.:)

Coblcris

We need to see photographs of the signs.

Coupon-mad

As Coblcris rightly says, pics are needed of the signs or lack of them, as you will need them for your appeal anyway so take some now. Check the entrance to the car park, have they alerted drivers to the change with a clear big sign at the entrance? And also show us please the PCN front and back, all small print (blank out the PCN number and your car reg but leave visible all dates/times/location).

Knowing what I know from reading pepipoo forums regularly (see below), I would appeal ANY Council PCN all ther way to the adjudicator without hesitiation even if I didn't have much of case. You do, and that's only based on your brief outline.

Most people who appeal as far as the adjudicator win or the Council fold before the hearing. So your risk is minimal (all or nothing, with the odds in your favour...) and anyway, and it's even more likely that you will win if you heed advice on this pepipoo forum:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=30

Read a few threads that are about any Council PCNs, to get the hang of what to post about your PCN. Read the FAQs and sticky threads at the top of the main board view here:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?act=idx

Then go back to the first view of the pepipoo council tickets forum and register and start a new topic once cleared to post (usually in a day). Copy what others have done in that you will need to show both sides of your PCN (minus car reg and PCN number but leave all dates/times/location visible). Also show the posters there a pic of the place where you parked and a those pics of the signs/lack of signage.

You can also post your pics here is you want but pepipoo is the specialist fightback PCN forum.

RENEGADE_2

Note: where there is a mixture of free and paid periods pertaining to vehicles, the management MUST specify how soon the same vehicle may return if taking advantage of the free period. Stating "0-1hr FREE; 1-2 hrs - £1" is NOT sufficient. There is no such thing as "returning one hour after your vehicle was first recorded classifies you as being in your second hour". If they don't tell you how soon you can return, you may leave and re-enter; if you can do that, you don't have to move your car. See what is says.

Mindless_Clone

Thank you so much for all your advice so far. What a great forum.

Coblcris, I will certainly take some photos tomorrow and post them up.

Coupon-mad, thank you for the link to the other forum too. I will post there but, for completeness, continue to post here so you know the outcome/progress (may be useful for others).
There is definitely no sign alerting anyone to any change in the entrance. There's not even a clearly marked entrance/exit actually, now I think of it! That said, I don't know when it changed - some time in the last 3 or 4 weeks as I last used it at the end of July. There are (and always have been since the first stated charging) "Have You Paid And Displayed?" notices up though. You just never had to - or even actually could - "display" a ticket for the first hour before. I'm pretty sure that wasn't written down on the signs though but I can't be sure.

RENEGADE; I don't recall if there is a "no return in xx time" sign or not but the issue isn't that I overstayed (I didn't); the issue is that I didn't get a ticket for my free time there - because I didn't know that I had to when previously I didn't.

The parking warden observed the car from 11.35 to 11.39 according to the PCN (I suppose I could argue that I went to get change for the meter?) but that wouldn't be true; I pulled in at 11.20am and got back to the car at 11.44am. I have actually kept the ticket I printed when I tested the machine when I got back (it says 12.14 exit so I definitely got back at that time) and the vet appointment was at 11am and we were there for at least 15 minutes so I can prove I didn't enter the car park before at least 11.15am. I guess the time I was there is not really an issue when the PCN is for failing to display a ticket though.

As I say though, I will go take pictures tomorrow and thoroughly check all signage.

The frustrating thing is, I would think almost every driver using the car park will get caught out by this; it's a tiny car park serving just a handful of local shops to a local community so almost everyone is a regular user and almost nobody is there longer than 15/20 minutes. If they've all made the same assumption I did, I dread to think how much money the council have generated doing this. I know they're a bit strapped for cash and all that but I'd rather they hike my council tax £30 a year than these underhand tactics to get money off of folks.

Thanks again for your advice.

Mindless_Clone

opps double post... Doh!

Mindless_Clone

Apologies for taking so long to get back to you with an update. I have had, sahll we say, an interesting week so first opportunity I've had to photo/scan stuff.

I can't actually post links as the forum won't let me yet so I have just posted one to the album and you can view them there:

s1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee413/Mindless_Clone/

Firstly, the ticket, which appears all above board.

The car park entrance from inside and outside the car park.
From inside on the left you can see a pole which is at the entrance to the car park which has a sign (close up in file). On the right hand side where the red arrow is is where my car is parked (just off camera) and the same spot I was in when I was issued with the PCN.
You can also see a sign opposite the car park (actually outside the car part itself it on a service road which you use to access the car park and garages/service area for rear of shops) and there is a close up of that sign too.
A couple more pictures of the car park, position of my car being indicated by the red arrow on the first, and the opposite side of the car park which a couple of notices can be seen (sorry I don't have a close up of these but they both say "have you paid and displayed your ticket inside your windscreen")
Also the ticket machine itself, and the notice above it, with a close up.

You can see fairly clearly the bit that has been changed as it is raised/screwed over plate on top of the previous charges. It does actually state is small print that you need a ticket for the free period - which is the bit that has changed that caught me out - but I didn't see that when I parked (only when I went back to check). As I say this is the only change in any signage anywhere in the car park (all other signs were in situ and exactly the same) and prior to this for a good few years. Despite always saying "have you paid and displayed" you never had to obtain a ticket for the free period and simply couldn't do so.

I guess my question is, the only place it states a change in car parking rules is at the meter. Can I challenge (and win) based on the grounds that they failed to provide adequate notification to a change in parking rules/fees/conditions? Or any other clause (hey, I'm not fussed!) I don't really want to waste my time doing so if I haven't got a case and will end up paying anyway. But I am miffed as had I been going in the other direction to the other shops, I would not have even glanced at the meter in the first place so would never have known it had changed at all and would have overstayed the 30 minutes!

Coupon-mad

Mindless_Clone wrote: »

I guess my question is, the only place it states a change in car parking rules is at the meter. Can I challenge (and win) based on the grounds that they failed to provide adequate notification to a change in parking rules/fees/conditions?

Or any other clause (hey, I'm not fussed!) I don't really want to waste my time doing so if I haven't got a case and will end up paying anyway. But I am miffed as had I been going in the other direction to the other shops, I would not have even glanced at the meter in the first place so would never have known it had changed at all and would have overstayed the 30 minutes!

IMHO you can challenge and win on that basis but I expect the Council will refuse at first (Councils usually refuse the vast majority of informal appeals it seems, do not be put off and think you have no case when you get the standard early rejection!).

I would also obtain the Parking Places Order from the Council by emailing and asking for it. No reference to the PCN at all is needed and in fact I would email in a different family name so they do not confuse your request for info with your appeal. Do not delay your informal appeal though; do both the 'anonymous request' for the PPO and the informal appeal asap.

Restrictions need to be clearly signed and I expect pepipoo posters can help you to word your appeal. I think changing the restriction and not alerting drivers to it clearly probably has won at appeal before - ask them on the other site for any instances. Why on earth would anyone look at a meter if they knew that it was a free car park for the first half hour and were used to the t&cs, and had not had any change drawn to their attention?

Mindless_Clone

Hello, I feel a bit sheepish coming back after so long but feel I owe an update.

As things turned out, I did a bit of research, (thanks for providing some very helpful links ) and I put in an initial challenge. It was, as predicted, rejected. Unfortunately, around this time my mum was taken seriously ill and admitted to hospital and, frankly, I had neither the strength or time to pursue it so I ended up paying (only £30 though so not too bad).

Several months later I noticed that they had changed the signs in the car park and placed very prominent notices on both the meter and the entrance that a ticket was now required for the free time. I mentioned this to one of the local shop keepers and he told me that a lot of people had complained of being caught out in the car park and that a group of them had got together to challenge theirs and had their fines overturned.

So in all a satisfactory outcome for some and for all those using the car park in future but they probably made a lot of money out of folks like me who paid up.

Thank you to everyone who offered me advice. :T

bondy_lad

thanks for update, hope your mum is ok now.

Stephen_Leak

Presuming that things have settled down on the personal front and now that the council have had to climb down so publicly, write to them asking for your £30 back. If and when they refuse, write back threatening to sue them for it.