Large vet's bill - advice please

Cyril

A couple of years ago I would have agreed with puddy but after what we've seen and heard in the media I am also very sceptical about vets being more interested in profit than patients.

They do their best for an animal i'm sure but its all the little added extras that come out the woodwork.

A friend's little dog was under sedation at the vets and she was rung to ask if she'd like his teeth cleaning for the princely sum of £180 :eek:

She said no and thats the difference, she had the option of saying no you weren't contacted and had no option. You could have said no let him slip away rather than put yourself in debt particularly if your boy's treatment is long term with no definate guarantee of a return to health.

I would be outraged at being presented with a bill for £4k when the estimate was £2k. If you were told at the outset that any unforseen problems could significantly increase the bill you would have had the option of saying no but as it is they seem to have washed their hands of it as a fait a complait and left you with a horrible debt.

I really feel for you and I know people will disagree but I do sometimes think vets abuse the fact that we love our animals so will pay anything to get them well.

puddy

yes, that is true. i think im the only person i know who takes the pets to the vet and doesnt cringe at the amount. in fact i cringe when i hear friends of mine say 'and it cost me £80 to get that sorted' and all i can think is that the pet is better or something

i suppose i feel ive been lucky with my vets, although had a horrendous experience with an emergency vet who i think contributed to the death of my cat last year but have sort of put to the back of my mind, so i think im possibly not seeing it the way others are.

Sooz00

puddy wrote: »

no, im talking about possible complications that can arise from going under anaesthetic too many times or being opened up too many times. its not like going to the dentist, any operation has a risk of death and complications. once under and opened, they were obliged to continue with what they saw

I understand anaesthesia risks. But I think we will have to agree to disagree on the 'once under and opened, they were obliged to continue with what the saw'.

Many a time, I've had calls from my GP vet whilst my cat/dog is under GA, e.g. when one had a dental this year to remove a canine with an infected tooth root. When he x-rayed, he saw the other canine was infected so called me whilst she was under to tell me and get authorisation to remove both. The practice in question here have also called me before when a different pet was on the table. It is quite standard which is why I don't understand why it didn't happen on this occasion.

Surgery was not the only option and at the time they opened up and saw that there were major vessels attached to the node, plus the fact that it was attached to the intestine and pancreas, I believe they should have called and let me make an informed decision to authorise them to remove the mass having been made aware of the high risk OR close up and go with the chemo/radiation. That aside, there have been plenty of opportunities to tell me that the bill was so big, four days in fact, during which they have seen or spoken to me every day if not more than once a day... I have spoken to a couple of people I know who work in this field and have been told that it is against RCVS guidelines not to keep a client updated where an estimate is grossly different to the reality.

When the bills have been different to an estimate before, they have always called. Therefore, in this situation, whilst I thought it would be a bit over, I had no reason to think it would be double. The problem is that it renders the operation somewhat pointless as i now can't afford aftercare/follow up.

I feel stuck between a rock and a hard place and I truly don't know what to do. I have spent years with this specialist and until now, have not had any problems. I know they are expensive in comparison to some other specialists as the are private rather than charity or vet school referral centre but even so... double???

Sooz00

pinetree wrote: »

Hi this is a difficult situation whilst we all want the best for our pets your bill does seem a lot. Without being insensitive( I hope) did they give a prognosis for your dogs future as that can sometimes have an effect on the bill, also as an observation an op is an op I dont know why they were giving details blood vessels etc it sounds to me that they were trying to justify the fees. These are just a couple of points i wanted to say, if they do not give you any reductions I would ask to pay in say monthly instalments to help

hope your dog is ok

Thanks Pinetree. It's my cat. He's sleeping next to me. I am struggling to get him to eat - on the phone to my general vets practice at the moment but the vet has apparently just gone to lunch! I have to call back at quarter to four. The lab results are due back next week which should give an idea what we do with chemo etc.

The details re. blood vessels etc. are on his discharge note under 'Clinical findings and treatment'. To be honest, I am surprised he has been discharged being as he was still on a drip ten mins before I left the building with him (collection time had been agreed as they'd called me to arrange). I'm wondering how they know his hydration levels will be okay without a drip seeing as they did not hold him there and see how he did. He is also not eating so I am syringe feeding. That aside, he does seem in good spirits, is purring, wanting cuddles etc.

Sooz00

Cyril wrote: »

A couple of years ago I would have agreed with puddy but after what we've seen and heard in the media I am also very sceptical about vets being more interested in profit than patients.

They do their best for an animal i'm sure but its all the little added extras that come out the woodwork.

A friend's little dog was under sedation at the vets and she was rung to ask if she'd like his teeth cleaning for the princely sum of £180 :eek:

She said no and thats the difference, she had the option of saying no you weren't contacted and had no option. You could have said no let him slip away rather than put yourself in debt particularly if your boy's treatment is long term with no definate guarantee of a return to health.

I would be outraged at being presented with a bill for £4k when the estimate was £2k. If you were told at the outset that any unforseen problems could significantly increase the bill you would have had the option of saying no but as it is they seem to have washed their hands of it as a fait a complait and left you with a horrible debt.

I really feel for you and I know people will disagree but I do sometimes think vets abuse the fact that we love our animals so will pay anything to get them well.

Thanks Cyril. I wouldn't have let him slip away but I would have said to close up so we could wait a week and try a different chemo protocol or radiation, as long as he still had quality of life. Both of these had been discussed as options.

Sooz00

puddy wrote: »

yes, that is true. i think im the only person i know who takes the pets to the vet and doesnt cringe at the amount. in fact i cringe when i hear friends of mine say 'and it cost me £80 to get that sorted' and all i can think is that the pet is better or something

i suppose i feel ive been lucky with my vets, although had a horrendous experience with an emergency vet who i think contributed to the death of my cat last year but have sort of put to the back of my mind, so i think im possibly not seeing it the way others are.

I have to say I usually just pay and get on with it but this bill just took it to a whole new level. I wonder if they were just complacent, thinking I would pay anything, maybe in the light of having paid around £18k for my other cat's VAS over the last six years. Still, doesn't help the situation now....

Elle7

Was chemo still an option after he had been opened up?

I haven't yet studied this fully, but I understand that after surgery there is a recovery period in which chemotherapy would be 'inadvisable' (I'm looking at my study books now!) so maybe it was the case that there was no alternatives.

If there was, I think I'd be discussing the options with the vet. They don't seem very contactable...I don't think emailing or calling back later is a suitable response to an animal who has just had such a big surgery and is not eating or drinking independently. Before he was released they should have witnessed him doing this, and that he was urinating/defecating properly - he should not have still been on a drip, in most circumstances.

It may be that they feel he will thrive better at home, if he gets stressed in vets/around strangers/around other animals, but they should have warned you that this was why they were releasing him, and to take him straight back in if he struggles at all.

In my opinion, treatment isn't complete, and you should take him back and explain that for a bill that is double what was quoted you are not at all happy, and speak to someone who is in a position of authority.

As an afterthought, you should have discussed treatment options before he went into surgery - if you did, and you told them that if any blood vessels etc were involved you did not want them operated on, then why did they do it?

While you are there, I would also make sure you know exactly what is happening with regards to the prognosis. This should also have been explained before - do they believe this will give him a substantial period of time (years?) or is it a more temporary treatment? I'm sorry if that is an upsetting question - its just that as the owner you should be given the choice of what area to go for...while vets have the animals best interests at heart, they also need to consider what you want.

When my dog got MVD, there were a range of medications available at first, but when we took him in to say goodbye, they could see I was very, very upset. I hyperventilated, and had to delay it for 15 minutes to calm down. I really struggled with it - at this point they offered other treatments, in this case manually 'draining' his chest to make him more comfortable, which would possibly give him days or weeks. This was entirely my choice - the same principles should have been applied to you. It is your decision if you want any treatment, and how much.

I hope this has been of some help and isn't just a huge ramble!

E x

rising_from_the_ashes

Sooz00 wrote: »

We had agreed that if it was operable (i.e. not attached to blood vessels etc.) then they would remove it. If not, they would try and debulk it to try and make it more chemo sensitive as he has handled his chemo well apart from this one resistant mass. When they opened him up, they saw it was vascularised and attached to 'the pylorus/proximal duodenum, the epiplon and the body of the pancreas' (took that from the discharge note). It also says 'Some major physiologic blood vessels were adherent to the mass and had to be ligated'. They didn't contact me at that point. They decided that despite the risks (which were high), they would attempt a complete resection which obviously caused complications, loss of lots of blood, etc.

Sooz00 wrote: »

I understand what you are trying to say but at the time of opening up, and just looking, they could immediately see there would be complications but they did not call and seek consent in the light that the bill would no doubt be considerably higher. At that point, there would have been an option to close, wait a week as we had discussed and then change chemo protocols or try radiation if that is what I wanted to do and it would maintain my boy's quality of life.

The thing is, that didn't happen. They decided without me, to go ahead despite the increased risks. They did not allow me to make the decision.

Oh Sooz, I'm so sorry to hear you're boy's been through the mill and hope he's a bit better this evening?

I agree with you totally - if you'd agreed that the lump should be removed if "easily done" then this is what they should've done. If, on opening him up, it was obvious that this wasn't the case and the surgery would be much more extensive, then they should've called you at that point, discussed it with you and allowed you to make the decision on whether to go ahead or not. (I've known loads of vets who have done this - and they obviously do as it appears they rang you later on in the op, so why couldn't they have done it earlier!).

I'd ask for a meeting with the Senior Partner of the practice to discuss further. It's not as if it's a small amount - £2k over the estimate is just ridiculous.

I'm also sure that if you'd not been insured (which they will obviously know), they'd have phoned before going ahead to make sure you would be able to pay!

Good luck and keeping my fingers crossed your boy recovers soon (((hugs))).

kiwi07

Sorry can't give you any advice. I hope your boy will get better.

john1

Sooz00



Around 13 years ago my” Buddy” had to have animal hospital treatment to remove a wheat seed lodged in his lung. The vet estimated that the total charges would be £500 max to which I agreed.


Picking him up I was presented with a bill for £790. I rejected this £290 increase. Having previously read that for any professional estimate, the final bill should not vary by more than 10-15%. The vet who carried out the operation was called who agreed to charge the original amount when the article was mentioned.


I can’t put my hands on the original article (pre 1998) but basically I recall it read that any final bill should be within 10% of estimate, I believe this is true for builders, car repairers as well as solicitors vets etal.


The only information I can readily find is about solicitors over charging; Google “Wong v Vizards (1997)”, also” Reynolds v Stone Rowe Brewer (2008)” for more info .You may be able to delve deeper into case history than I.


Can't but hope that all goes well for you all