Building Quote changed after quote provided

ACD233

Long term lurker, first time post so be gentle please

I'm having a double garage with two single doors converted into a double garage with one wide (17ft) automatic sectional door fitted. This involves the removal of the central pillar and a new catnic lintel fitted-total cost including good quality door £2500 (some individuals posting on FMB wanted the best part of 5k :rotfl:)

I got the written quote from the garage door specialists for the fitting and building work and got them to go ahead with it. I was informed that I didn't need building notification but double checked anyway and found out I did need it which cost an additional £220 which I paid.

My local planning notification department have been very helpful and contacted the builder through the garage door specialist to confirm his lintel calculations were correct.

It turns out that the builder's calculations were out by several inches which has resulted in an increased cost of £400 for a bigger catnic lintel with the builder suggesting that I aborb the extra cost due to his incompetence.

At the moment, it is a mexican stand off between myself, the garage door company and the builders who are claiming that 'the planning department are being difficult' (err, no they are not, they are doing their job and I'm with the planning department on this one). If I hadn't applied for planning notification, I would have a complete 'mare trying to apply for retrospective planning notification with a (from the Planning Department's viewpoint) not fit for purpose lintel fitted.

Having accepted the written quote and having had to pay out almost 10% extra for planning notification, I really do not see why I should have to pay an additional amount of almost 16% because a builder has made the wrong calculations.

Legally, where do I stand and what suggestions do people have on this one? I paid a deposit of £200 to the garage door specialist so they could order the door. They have had the door in their showroom for the best part of a month now.

Many thanks in advance!

System

well, first off, the planning department have absolutely nothing to do with lintel calculations etc - that is the domain of the building standards department, two entirely seperate entities.
Once you found out that you did require building standards approval who dealt with that? If the builders calculations were incorrect then there is only one person at fault, the person that did an incorrect calculation!
do you have any written documentation from the builders that say what they will provide for the quoted price, if it includes calculations and a lintel then they will have to take the hit - if you have nothing written down about who is doing what you are going to end up arguing and arguing

ACD233

My local planning department sent a guy out who I spoke to at length. Building standards and planning notification departments are combined where I live I believe.

Having an engineering background and knowing that 'calculations on the back of a fag packet' will not placate building standards/planning control, I was happy to deal with the planning notification myself (it isn't a difficult process anyway!) -I couldn't risk the builders not doing it prior to the work starting. I informed the garage company that I was doing this. My local planning department told me submit the form online with a description of what is been done-no need to submit complex calculations as it's not altering the shape of the building. Their main concern was that the builder wouldn't fit a lintel with the correct amount of overhang on brickwork which turns out to be correct.

I have the written quote which does not mention specific measurements of the lintel-just the installation of a new lintel. Having spoke to the garage company, it appears that they have been doing these double garage door conversions for a while without getting planning notification which will be very problematic for people who try to sell their home in the future and a survey is carried out.

The issue here is that the quote says 'fitting of lintel', not 'fitting of lintel X by X by X'.

Is it not a reasonable assumption to make that the builder's calculations were correct in the first place and were in line with what is expected by planning/building standards?

System

They may work in the same office but planning and building standards are different and deal with different things entirely, but if you don't believe me then that's fine.
If you have calculated that the lintel needed is one that costs £400 more than the builder had thought, then i'm afraid, since you have specified the lintel you will likely have to pay for it - having said that the building work should be done to regulations anyway, whether or not if requires a formal approval, but i can't see the builder effectively losing 400 quid because you have specified a larger lintel.
the garage door company surely just provide the door and have nothing to do with getting building standards approval, they are in no way at fault here or in the past (unless the doors provided are faulty)

ACD233

You're not reading my posts correctly.

I got a quote from the garage company (my contract is with them). They gave me a quote which included the building work that they've subcontracted.

I informed them that having spoken to planning control, I needed to submit planning notification and I would deal with it. They were happy with that but claimed that I didn't need to submit notification.

Planning control have said I was right to notify them. I didn't specify the calculations of the lintel as a) that's for the builder to do and b) I'm not a structural engineer -I submitted planning notification online which was 'Removal of 2 single garage doors and central pillar, replacement of lintel and installation of double sectional automatic door'. That was it (and cost me £220 to do-it's a lucrative business it seems!)

You're hung up on building control/planning not being the same-that's not my argument here. I don't care if they have different roles-where I live, they work out of the same office and talk to each
other and essentially, I have submitted the plans to the office clerk online and the engineer checks that the builder has made the right calculations.

The builders did the calculations of the lintel. Planning/building control have told the builders that the lintel that the builder calculated is not fit for purpose and to fit one that is fit for purpose.

The builder wants me to pay extra-why should I? He got his calculations wrong-I didn't provide any calculations. The quote doesn't mention the size of the lintel-this is the problem-he messed up his calculations and now wants me to pay extra after I agreed to the original quote and paid the deposit.

Out of interest, what is your background?

System

i see, i read it as the builder and garage door being seperate - if the details they have provided do not meet regulations then they should deal with it - you should have made them submit the calculations directly as it would have taken you out of the process entirely. Someone must have done the calculations somewhere, and it will be that person that is liable for the calculations being incorrect, if the company doing the work think the lintel they specified is fine, they should have calculations to show that (approved by a structural engineer)
I can't see how they can charge you more if they have incorrectly sized a lintel, if all you have done is give their information to the building standards department then they are at fault - if you have a contract with them to supply and fit a suitable lintel then that is what they have to do

freezspirit

Just out of interest, how far along is the work progressed, I mean have they taken the 2 single door off, removed the centre pillar, inserted the correct lintel. As you say they have the double door in there showroom. Personally I would clamly go into the office and ask to speak to someone in charge, explain the situation, you having to pay the £220 for building notification. And now being asked to pay extra for a builders mistake is not far. Personally if the builder did make a mistake he could use the lintel for future use.

teneighty

My opinion would be that the original quotation should include all things that the company should reasonably have been able to see or know. Assumming the structure to be supported above the garage door was available for inspection, possibly wall and roof, then the company should have allowed for the correct lintel. If there were more complicated issues which were not obvious then you cannot expect them to have x-ray vision.

If we are talking about a Catnic type lintel a structural engineer and full calculations are not required. Any decent builder should be able to work out the load to be supported and use the manufacturers safe load tables. Failing that all lintel companies and some builders merchants will work it out for you so there is no way the builder can argue that that they are not responsible.

When you talk about the "correct overhang of brickwork" I'm a bit confused and assume you are talking about the end bearing of the lintel where it sits on the wall, normally 150mm minimum. If that is the problem then surely the builder has just got a lintel that is too short and needs to get a longer one. Again, their error and their responsiblity.

Just to clarify the matter of Planning. I would expect the work to require a Building Regulations application as it is a structural alteration, administered by the Building Control Department. I would be very surprised if you needed a Planning Application unless you lived in a listed building or conservation area etc. Although they often both work out of the same department they are completely autonomous and probably have very little contact with each other. This is only a technicality but it does add to the confusion and could muddy the water when it comes to your negotiations with the builder. There is a good forum post explaining the differences.

ACD233

@freezspirit,

No building work has been done yet. I've spoken to the garage company owner on several occassions-it is the builder who is being problematic.

@teneighty,

Many thanks for that-yes, I meant the end bearing of the lintel-the correct phrasing slipped my mind at the time. A full inspection was carried out by the garage door fitter and builder at the same time-no access issues and it is not a complicated job by any means at all.

Alan_M_2

ACD233 wrote: »

I got a quote from the garage company (my contract is with them). They gave me a quote which included the building work that they've subcontracted.

If the garage company have subcontracted the work and your contract is with them, you should not even be discussing this with the builder - you should be discussing it with the garage company.

In this scenario you pay the entire cost through the garage door company.


If the builder has been recommended and the garage company are supplying only - then your conversation is with the builder. This isn't subcontacting and is something different.

In this scenario you are paying the garage company and the builder independently.

Which is it?

If it's option 1 - Take up the whole situation with the garage door company they are responsible for the entire contract and any miscalculations fall under their remit as main contractor.

If it's option 2 - Get another builder and get it built right, continue your supply only contract with the garage door company.

keystone

ACD233 wrote: »

I got a quote from the garage company (my contract is with them). They gave me a quote which included the building work that they've subcontracted.

Then its their responsibility and that of whomever they use as a subby to get it right and install the correct lintel. Tell the bulder you will not discuss it with him and he must take it up with his main contractor. 10 gets you five he has already done this, they told him "down to you son" so he's trying it on with you.

Cheers

PS Whether you like it or not and whether they occupy even the same desk or not planning and BC ARE different functions with different regs, different requirements and different outlooks within your LABC.