Which car parks can actually enforce their charges?

Rochdale_Pioneers

Have been reading with some amusement the various threads about PCNs and what aeroplane to fold them into. What seems clear is that regardless of what signage they want to place on a poll in the car park, they cannot fine you or even compel you to pay them whether you go over the time on your ticket. If you even bother to buy a ticket.

So which car parks are we talking about? I have parked in quite a few local authority car parks which have signs by the scammers on them. Similarly retail establishments, motorway services etc etc.

Are there any car parks where you actually commit an offence or even risk civil prosecution, or is off-street parking one giant protection racket? I'm not advocating complete non-payment of any parking fee, I'm just entertained that this another making profit by ripping off the public scam - authorised by our good friends in the council, supermarket, train station etc.

RENEGADE_2

Not "which car parks" but rather "which people".

Councils and authorities can of course issue legal penalties. Apart from them, train operating companies may issue tickets when enforcing Byelaw 14 and there are times this power may be devolved to a private company. There are also places where private companies have been hired by the council. These are the things to watch for; there may be more but the examples you gave (eg. motorway services) are things for which you are generally safe to ignore.

esmerobbo

The simple answer is pay fees but don't pay penalties unless the are official!

To say they are not enforceable is not entirely true, a company is entitled to sue for any loss. However not many companies would issue proceedings for the loss of a days parking.

Overstaying in free car parks whilst using the facilities is the biggest con, I dread to think how many people are getting invoiced and paying for overstaying.

Stigy

As Renegade has said, some railway station car parks use the Byelaws in order to make their charges enforceable, although it's often easier to have a PPC do all the leg work and not use the Byelaws. Also, not all railway stations have their own car parks and as such wouldn't be able to enforce the byelaws in them (I've yet to find one that isn't owned by Network Rail and managed by a TOC though). Bear in mind also, that when enforcing Railway Byelaws an alleged offender could come a cropper and be questioned about their parking, making the matter potentially go straight to the Magistrates' Court. Potentially a large fine and a Criminal Record just for a £6 parking ticket.

Coupon-mad

Just look for large retail car parks and check that the signs have no Council logo and mention 'parking charge notice' = scam.

A real PCN is a 'penalty charge notice' which you should appeal to the relevant Council if ever you get one of those. You can get one in a Council car park as well as on-street, so be aware to distinguish between the two types of car park, by the signage.

We do not advise people not to pay the reasonable fee for parking there. No-one here begrudges paying a landowner/occupier a quid or two if it's not a free car park, it's fair to pay a small amount for the parking provision if there is no free alternative.

We just say that if you happen to be in a private car park and happen to get a fake PCN on your windscreen along with the Burger King flyer, just file both of them. The Burger King leaflet is the only item with any meaning out of the two, of course, assuming you like burgers!

And finally if driving into a private car park always check around that there are no clamping signs - if so then my advice is to park elsewhere until this crim practice is finally stopped. Clampers are not normal reasonable people and I would never park my car where there's a private clamping sign - even if visiting the premises legitimately I would not park there.

HO87

Stigy wrote: »

Bear in mind also, that when enforcing Railway Byelaws an alleged offender could come a cropper and be questioned about their parking, making the matter potentially go straight to the Magistrates' Court. Potentially a large fine and a Criminal Record just for a £6 parking ticket.

Whilst fare evasion is recordable a breach of the Railway Byelaws such as those in Byelaw 14 (parking) is not recordable.

Stigy

HO87 wrote: »

Whilst fare evasion is recordable a breach of the Railway Byelaws such as those in Byelaw 14 (parking) is not recordable.

It is non-recordable, but a conviction for a breach of a railway byelaw, to all intents and purposes, is a criminal conviction, as byelaws are criminal offences. The difference is that being convicted for fare evasion (5.(3) Regulation of Railways Act 1889) is PNC recordable, and as such carries higher potential penalties than Byelaws, which is where the term recordable comes in to the equation. I suppose it depends which way you look at it as to whether you have a criminal record though, and I agree that a conviction for a Strict Liability Byelaw wont necessarily mean you have to disclose it for employment purposes etc.

HO87

The fact remains that a breach of byelaw 14, or indeed any of the byelaws, is not a "recordable" offence which is defined as being an offence for which, on conviction, you may be liable to a term of imprisonment or one that is specified in the regulations. It is unequivocally neither of these. It may be a conviction but you will not get a criminal record as a result and is therefore not a criminal conviction in exactly the same way as being convicted of walking on the grass in my local park, contrary to the byelaws, is not a criminal conviction.

To have stated otherwise was both incorrect and liable to mislead.

Stigy

HO87 wrote: »

The fact remains that a breach of byelaw 14, or indeed any of the byelaws, is not a "recordable" offence which is defined as being an offence for which, on conviction, you may be liable to a term of imprisonment or one that is specified in the regulations. It is unequivocally neither of these. It may be a conviction but you will not get a criminal record as a result and is therefore not a criminal conviction in exactly the same way as being convicted of walking on the grass in my local park, contrary to the byelaws, is not a criminal conviction.

To have stated otherwise was both incorrect and liable to mislead.

I know Byelaws are non-recordable, and have never stated otherwise. What I was trying to get accross was that recordable offences are recorded on the PNC as a criminal conviction, and just because an offence isn't recorded on the PNC doesn't mean it's not criminal. Surely if you're convicted of a criminal offence, you receive some sort of record?

HO87

Stigy wrote: »

I know Byelaws are non-recordable, and have never stated otherwise.

However, that is not quite how the post reads

Stigy wrote: »

Bear in mind also, that when enforcing Railway Byelaws an alleged offender could come a cropper and be questioned about their parking, making the matter potentially go straight to the Magistrates' Court. Potentially a large fine and a Criminal Record just for a £6 parking ticket.

That last sentence reads pretty unequivocally. The only conclusion that can reasonably be drawn from it is that if convicted of a breach of byelaws you will incur a criminal record, period.

Stigy wrote: »

What I was trying to get accross was that recordable offences are recorded on the PNC as a criminal conviction, and just because an offence isn't recorded on the PNC doesn't mean it's not criminal. Surely if you're convicted of a criminal offence, you receive some sort of record?

You are conflating being convicted of an offence with being convicted of a criminal offence - a common misunderstanding but a misunderstanding nonetheless. They are two entirely different beasts. The uninitiated arriving at this forum are already worried enough and add to this the completely erroneous spectre of a possible criminal conviction will only serve to heighten their anxiety.

We all make mistakes or misunderstand things but lets try to give as accurate information as possible to first-time readers. Twisting on the wire does no one any credit. You were mistaken.

Stigy

HO87 wrote: »

However, that is not quite how the post reads



That last sentence reads pretty unequivocally. The only conclusion that can reasonably be drawn from it is that if convicted of a breach of byelaws you will incur a criminal record, period.

If you're going to quote me, at least make sense of it. I said...

Me wrote:

Potentially a large fine and a Criminal Record just for a £6 parking ticket.

Note how I never said you will receive a criminal record.

HO87 wrote:

You are conflating being convicted of an offence with being convicted of a criminal offence - a common misunderstanding but a misunderstanding nonetheless. They are two entirely different beasts.

A Byelaw offence is a Criminal Offence, end of story. It's a non-recordable offence, but it's still a criminal one. So tell me, is a Byelaw offence a civil, or a criminal matter? That was a rhetorical question, as I already know the answer.

HO87 wrote:

We all make mistakes or misunderstand things but lets try to give as accurate information as possible to first-time readers. Twisting on the wire does no one any credit. You were mistaken.

If ever there was an award for the most patronising comment made here, you'd win hands down. It's clear from what I've read in this very forum that it's a wealth of mis-information already. I was not mistaken, and I stand by what I initially said.