Thinking aloud about stars

soolin

comic_sans wrote: »

no, i agree, its not widespread, but it does happen, but anyhow, i am very interested in the psychology of selling, and i think that the only thing that can let you down as a seller if everything else in order is indeed literally things out of our control, P&P

without offering free P&P, it really is down to offering things like combined shipping, and although the rating is for charges, the way the item is packed also makes a huge difference. my parcels always arrive looking like a traditional brown paper parcel where applicable and this has become my 'thing'. i think my buyers like it, and it shows i care about the whole operation from start to finish. it doesnt cost me anymore than other packing materials, but it looks good!

As an observation and as you mentioned your P and P star was a little lower than your others - ditch the brown paper. Paper was suitable when posties had sealed bags and pushed things through doors, now that is not always the case and my routes are done with trolleys and those trolleys are often left open to the rain while the postman scoots back and forth to the local streets. Chances are that paper parcels delivered to me will be drenched and unpleasant by the time they arrive. Damp brown paper is extremely unpleasant and I recently had books delivered in plastic 'sorry for the damage' RM envleopes as the wrapping had been ripped off.

Take a cue from the shops and make parcels waterproof, plastic mailers are very cheap and can protect parcels.

wendym

Echoing soolin on the packaging - just had FB from a delightful patient Canadian buyer who was bidding when their postal service was on strike - main comment was THANK YOU for properly waterproof package.

comic_sans

my items are always fully waterproofed and protectively wrapped inside the paper, and whilst if it happened to be raining, and if my item did happen to get drenched, i think people appreciate the effort, in fact i know they do, as i have received many comments as to the quality and thoughtfulness of my packaging.

so thanks for the advice, but i wont be ditching it for now.

comic_sans

Crowqueen wrote: »

No, sorry, I don't agree. Sellers who don't please their customers anywhere get put out of business, not just on eBay. For starters most main marketplace sites have some sort of feedback system to sort the wheat from the chaff. Heck, look at Ratners. One loose word on TV and Gerald Ratner went out of business virtually overnight. Feedback is not unique to eBay, neither is strict buyer protection.

If your buyer isn't happy with P&P then do something about it. That's the person who keeps you in business, like it or not.

The buyer is THE most important part of the selling process. Buyers should be protected because they are the ones who spend the money. Full stop. If it wasn't for buyers, there would be no eBay and no sellers. Furthermore, legally speaking, buyers are given rights because otherwise the seller would have no incentive to sell properly. The seller is in complete control of most of the process from the buyer's payment onward and that is why there are so many rights attached to buying.

Good sellers know this and work within it. Bad sellers are in denial and usually start off by saying the buyers need education. Well, I'm sorry, I don't, I'm quite capable of spending my money and giving feedback on how that money has been handled. eBay is not Facebook or Big Brother - when it comes to money changing hands you just cannot run the site based on sellers' own evaluations of how they perform. You have to allow the buyers to have that final say.

Buyers DO NOT usually misunderstand the DSR system - the averages are set by the buyers, the poor sellers usually stand out from the good ones, and that's what I base my feedback on when I leave it. It's pretty arrogant to say otherwise.

having re-read your post, i must say that i have gone from agreeing with most of your points to reaching a conclusion that you are adressing points that i havent actually made...

at no point did i say there shouldnt be a form of feedback

at no point did i say i had a particular problem with P&P, just that it was my least lowest average (but still 4.8) it was a hypothetical example

you include a paragragh about the rights of a buyer - at no point did i challenge this

you say that buyers do not usually misunderstand the the dsr rating, i was saying that sometimes they do, not always, but sometimes, and to paraphrase, it is pretty arrogant to suggest otherwise

also, you seem to think i am a disgruntled seller who is blaming hypothetical buyer for low ratings, this is far from the truth, what i am doing is playing devils advocate in a discussion to make sure both points are put across, which im sure is how a discussion is meant to develop, however i seem to have been criticised for it, and you have taken my points in the discussion objectively not in the spirit in which they were intended

from a lighthearted discussion to a direct attack is not what i was expecting from this forum, i understood it to be a place to put forward different arguments for discussion, not for direct advice (which i dont need) to be offered, which i find patronising.

i look forward to discussing other topics, but hope to keep it objective

Crowqueen

It was the comment about buyers misunderstanding the DSR system which got to me.

It may not also have been addressing you in particular but the wider assumptions many people make when responding to these kind of threads with that kind of statement.

I stand by what I said even if it may not have been what you really meant to say or what you believe, and you should notice I agreed with you on a couple of points you made earlier.

It really annoys me because I spend so much money online - a lot more than I make in sales any more - and I'm tired of being treated as a second-class citizen by sellers whose only concern is the money and then the feedback. Treating customers well and honouring their rights as a matter of course comes way down the list with some people and it's time that people started to lose that notion and make it much more appealing for us to buy from them. Either that or stop complaining when their feedback falls off and their sales do likewise.

If you are playing Devil's Advocate, it makes no difference, some of your points are just those that touch a raw nerve and should IMO be corrected before someone takes you at face value.

eBay is not Facebook with some trading activity on the side. The whole point of the site is to trade items, which often involves legal responsibilities and so on. Therefore I think that it is sellers who often need educating on the DSR system, not buyers. That often doesn't get across very well on this sort of thread and sometimes you need to be blunt, and, yes, patronising. Get used to it - I feel patronised as a buyer every time someone suggests that my rights as a consumer are not enforceable so shouldn't be honoured, that everyone who tries to claim an item is not received or broken in the post is a scammer, and when someone suggests to someone else that they ask for a Paypal payment as a gift "because you know you're not going to scam your buyer". That's what's patronising.

Also I've never seen you around on this forum before and have no idea whether you're a good seller, a disgruntled seller, or a bad seller. All I can go with is what you say in your messages. Sorry, but there is no special reason why I should not respond to points you make before I know your entire history on eBay (invisible to me) or your personal history or methods behind your selling (virtually impossible for me to find out). Irony, sarcasm, joking, Devil's Advocacy - all are pretty much lost on a forum like this.

pitkin2020

Crowqueen wrote: »

It was the comment about buyers misunderstanding the DSR system which got to me. A small minority don't understand the effect of low DSR's, you only need one or two people to bring you stars down which will be the minority.

It may not also have been addressing you in particular but the wider assumptions many people make when responding to these kind of threads with that kind of statement.

I stand by what I said even if it may not have been what you really meant to say or what you believe, and you should notice I agreed with you on a couple of points you made earlier.

It really annoys me because I spend so much money online - a lot more than I make in sales any more - and I'm tired of being treated as a second-class citizen by sellers whose only concern is the money and then the feedback. Treating customers well and honouring their rights as a matter of course comes way down the list with some people and it's time that people started to lose that notion and make it much more appealing for us to buy from them. Either that or stop complaining when their feedback falls off and their sales do likewise.
Maybe thats just the sellers your dealing with, maybe you should use your judgement more and check the seller out before just parting with your cash because you are protected by paypal!!


If you are playing Devil's Advocate, it makes no difference, some of your points are just those that touch a raw nerve and should IMO be corrected before someone takes you at face value.

eBay is not Facebook with some trading activity on the side. The whole point of the site is to trade items, which often involves legal responsibilities and so on. Therefore I think that it is sellers who often need educating on the DSR system, not buyers.
I agree buyers should be made fully aware of the DSR's aswell as sellers, but surely thats what ebay should promoting rather than sellers having to promote this themselves.?

That often doesn't get across very well on this sort of thread and sometimes you need to be blunt, and, yes, patronising. Get used to it - I feel patronised as a buyer every time someone suggests that my rights as a consumer are not enforceable so shouldn't be honoured, that everyone who tries to claim an item is not received or broken in the post is a scammer, and when someone suggests to someone else that they ask for a Paypal payment as a gift "because you know you're not going to scam your buyer". That's what's patronising.
LOL You can ask for what ever payment method you want as a seller, as per ebay rules you have to accept paypal so the buyer (someone over 18) can decide how they would like to pay, there is no harm what so ever in asking.

Also I've never seen you around on this forum before and have no idea whether you're a good seller, a disgruntled seller, or a bad seller. All I can go with is what you say in your messages. Sorry, but there is no special reason why I should not respond to points you make before I know your entire history on eBay (invisible to me) or your personal history or methods behind your selling (virtually impossible for me to find out). Irony, sarcasm, joking, Devil's Advocacy - all are pretty much lost on a forum like this.

So what if you haven't seen someone on this forum before, it makes them no less genuine than you because you have a high post count. Its no different with ebay, a seller with zero feedback, 100 feedback or a 1000 feedback is no more genuine that anyone else and no more likely to scam or not scam you than anyone else.

Irony, sarcasm, joking, Devil's Advocacy - all are pretty much lost on a forum like this. No they are just lost on you, you are not this forum you are just a member like every other single person who is registered to this forum, your no more special than the OP because you have a higher post count.

charlies_mum

My biggest issue with the star system is that there are no defined parameters. It is all up to the buyers opinion, and what they deem to be 'reasonable'

One buyer may think a postage overcharge of 20p is fair, whereas another could leave 1 *.

Due to problems with low postage & packing stars, I now only charge exactly what it costs to post, or lose money on postage by subsidising it. I still have 2 3*

Crowqueen

charlies_mum wrote: »

My biggest issue with the star system is that there are no defined parameters. It is all up to the buyers opinion, and what they deem to be 'reasonable'

One buyer may think a postage overcharge of 20p is fair, whereas another could leave 1 *.

Due to problems with low postage & packing stars, I now only charge exactly what it costs to post, or lose money on postage by subsidising it. I still have 2 3*

Those people average themselves out though. The site averages take care of most of the people who have differing opinions on various factors sellers consider "objective". Working with those site averages, mostly 4.7-4.9, you can soon see where you are underperforming. It's not all 5s you're aiming for - it's to keep ahead of the average game.

That also applies to idiots who leave 1*s. Sometimes you can usually get CS to look at egregious cases, but normally people who sell in any volume are going to get one or two numpties every so often. More than that and you have to ask yourself what is going wrong here.

The feedback system is necessarily subjective because buyers each have different opinions about how sellers handle a transaction. Working with what you have and can't change is crucial here. Instead of moaning about it, look at averages, look at threads like this one with perspectives from the buyer's POV, learn to work with your buyers rather than consider them a necessary evil, and if your stars really are slipping, appraise your listings and service policies honestly. With postage, as Soo said above items with inclusive postage do seem to sell better than ones without, even with a higher price being charges to take fees into account. That may be a way to get your stars on P&P up and the extra fee is a reasonable price to pay for better feedback and more sales.

We spend the money with you. We need a facility to tell who is average from who is slipping. Sorry.

comic_sans

Crowqueen wrote: »

It was the comment about buyers misunderstanding the DSR system which got to me.

It may not also have been addressing you in particular but the wider assumptions many people make when responding to these kind of threads with that kind of statement.

I stand by what I said even if it may not have been what you really meant to say or what you believe, and you should notice I agreed with you on a couple of points you made earlier.

It really annoys me because I spend so much money online - a lot more than I make in sales any more - and I'm tired of being treated as a second-class citizen by sellers whose only concern is the money and then the feedback. Treating customers well and honouring their rights as a matter of course comes way down the list with some people and it's time that people started to lose that notion and make it much more appealing for us to buy from them. Either that or stop complaining when their feedback falls off and their sales do likewise.

If you are playing Devil's Advocate, it makes no difference, some of your points are just those that touch a raw nerve and should IMO be corrected before someone takes you at face value.

eBay is not Facebook with some trading activity on the side. The whole point of the site is to trade items, which often involves legal responsibilities and so on. Therefore I think that it is sellers who often need educating on the DSR system, not buyers. That often doesn't get across very well on this sort of thread and sometimes you need to be blunt, and, yes, patronising. Get used to it - I feel patronised as a buyer every time someone suggests that my rights as a consumer are not enforceable so shouldn't be honoured, that everyone who tries to claim an item is not received or broken in the post is a scammer, and when someone suggests to someone else that they ask for a Paypal payment as a gift "because you know you're not going to scam your buyer". That's what's patronising.

Also I've never seen you around on this forum before and have no idea whether you're a good seller, a disgruntled seller, or a bad seller. All I can go with is what you say in your messages. Sorry, but there is no special reason why I should not respond to points you make before I know your entire history on eBay (invisible to me) or your personal history or methods behind your selling (virtually impossible for me to find out). Irony, sarcasm, joking, Devil's Advocacy - all are pretty much lost on a forum like this.

thanks for your reply, and to respond;

my points may or may not touch a raw nerve, but that does not make them any less true,
my point is this, some buyers do not understand the DSR and can inadvertantly damage a sellers reputation. i dont see how you think this requires 'correction'

in no way am i suggesting every buyer doesnt understand them.

yep, i am totally new here, so just finding my feet and getting involved in some discussions that are of interest, and of course there is no way you can have knowledge of my ebay activities, and dont want to really advertise my username etc on here, so i can only offer an accurate account of my experience on ebay, which is all we can ask of any forum member really.

as yet, no 'irony, sarcasm or jokes' from me up to now tho, but i assume you are refering to the forum as a a whole!

charlies_mum

Crowqueen wrote: »

Instead of moaning about it, look at averages, look at threads like this one with perspectives from the buyer's POV, learn to work with your buyers rather than consider them a necessary evil, and if your stars really are slipping, appraise your listings and service policies honestly. With postage, as Soo said above items with inclusive postage do seem to sell better than ones without, even with a higher price being charges to take fees into account. That may be a way to get your stars on P&P up and the extra fee is a reasonable price to pay for better feedback and more sales.

We spend the money with you. We need a facility to tell who is average from who is slipping. Sorry.

I never said I consider my buyers to be a necessary evil. I have only been using this account for two months and already have my TRS so I must be doing something right.

Most of the items I sell are heavy, so adding the postage into the price is not an option.

I am sure you are informed enough to leave relevant star ratings, but I think a lot of buyers are not, and leave low ratings not realising the damage they can do to a sellers account.