Previous employer says i owe the firm money & I have no contract! Help!

bbcooki3z

Hello I'm wondering if anyone can give me advice on my situation.

I recently quit a temp position (Feb-June) because i was not treated fairly in the firm (complex story) so i just walked out as i had no contract (i asked the manager twice to give me a contract in the beginning but he kept saying he needed to produce one etc etc).

During my time there I was in the middle of my Accounting course. I pay in instalments but my manager suggested he could pay for the whole thing and deduct it off each month for a period of 12 months. This is so I wouldn't get taxed as much, which wasn't much anyways. He started doing this in April. So he deducted it for 2 months only, leaving 10 months unpaid.

In June I also took some holiday.

I left work 28 June and when it came to payday, my manager didn't pay me. I called him and he said he will do the calculation via email. He now says I owe the firm money because he is not paying for all of my holiday pay... I took 11 days and he says I am entitled to 6 as its calculated pro rota. I emailed back to tell him Im not paying because he didnt tell me beforehand he wasnt paying my holiday neither was i planning to leave....

The reason i left my work place was because i was being treated unfairly by my manager and another colleague and my manager didn't do anything to resolve it.. e.g. did not give the other colleague any disciplinary action even though it happened 2-3 times. So I decided to leave as going to work everyday I felt miserable and upset... i left without any notice as I had no contract and i explained all of this to my manager before i left.

My manager is now saying I should pay the firm back otherwise he will take action.

Im wondering what i should do next and what my rights are? Sorry if this doesnt make sense, theres a lot more drama but im trying to cut it short.

I have already rang the Acas, they said they couldnt comment as he has not taken any action but advised me ring my local bureau for maybe a solicitor. i rang citizen advice bureau but they also said they could not comment because they need to connect me to my local bureau which they will ring me in a few days...i also did ring contactlaw but the lady said solicitors wouldnt get involved anyways cos the amount is too less.

Can i just ignore him and not pay him back as i believe i shouldnt need to or can my manager actually do something?

Nothing has been signed.. the only thing my manager has is his statement that money has been taken out.

isplumm

Hi,

So let me get this clear - you were entitled to 6 days - but actually took 11 - so now they want 5 days back - but you don't see why this is the case?

Is that right?

Mark

~Beanie~

And are you also saying that your boss paid for your accounting course in 1 lump sum and you agreed he could take it out of your salary monthly but you only paid 2 months before leaving and don't think you should pay any more?

SarEl

And I can tell you what the solicitor will say - you were overpaid, pay it back or they will take you to court and you will pay more in court costs and still have to pay it back. The rest of the story is so much extraneous stuffing - no court cares why you have left or whether you had reason to - only that you owe the money. Of course, if the employer has to take you to court to get it back they may decide to also sue for any quantifibale losses incurred by your leaving without notice - may as well if they have to go to the hassle of suing you anyway! And you did have a contract - just not a written statement of main particulars. The contract was formed the minute you agreed to work for them and they paid you for it.

bbcooki3z

Hi thanks for your replies,

isplumm: I understand after my manager told me after i left but, was never aware about it. Sorry if Im being naive, this is my first proper job =S

~Beanie~: Yes that correct

SarEl: Im just wondering if he can take me to court because I rang careerlaw and they said solicitors wouldn't be interested as the amount is not enough if I got a solicitor, would this not be the same for him?

So I guess my manager can do something whether or not i have signed anything...

Savvy_Sue

bbcooki3z wrote: »

SarEl: Im just wondering if he can take me to court because I rang careerlaw and they said solicitors wouldn't be interested as the amount is not enough if I got a solicitor, would this not be the same for him?(

you're making several assumptions, firstly that they'll need to use a solicitor to go to court, secondly that they don't have one 'on retainer' who wouldn't cost as much as you'd be charged.

EconomicsGirl

Holiday pay is normally pro rata and often for whole months only i.e. if you start on 2 Feb you get no holiday pay for Feb and if you leave on 28 June you get no holiday pay for June. Depends on your contract but that's a standard one. So I'ld say holiday pay the firm is correct on.

Accountancy course - if that's what you agreed then I'ld say you do owe it. Might be worth calling the course if you don't plan to complete it and seeing if they'll refund part of it. Don't know if your company would bother to sue or not - some would, some wouldn't. I used to work for a firm and they did only chase up debts over a certain amount, more if the person had gone abroad. However, if he is saying he'll take it further he may well do. Personally I would pay it if the course won't refund.

I personally never take a job without getting a written contract first and I would suggest in future you do this so everything is clear. Hope you can get things sorted.

dseventy

bbcooki3z wrote: »

So I guess my manager can do something whether or not i have signed anything...

You need to forget the "I had no contract" and "I didn't sign anything" stuff.

You did have a contract, you turned up for work and did a job, in return they paid you. You had a contract, just not written down.

You took more holiday then you were entitled to, plus you agreed to pay for something over a period then stopped.

I really don't see why you think you have any kind of defense!

D70

KiKi

bbcooki3z wrote: »

I recently quit a temp position (Feb-June) because i was not treated fairly in the firm (complex story) so i just walked out as i had no contract (i asked the manager twice to give me a contract in the beginning but he kept saying he needed to produce one etc etc).

A contract isn't a legal entitlement. You have a contract by the sheer fact you work there.

You are legally entitled to a statement of particulars (your pay, holiday, job role, basics like that) within the first 2 months of starting. In practice, there's little you can do about getting it if they don't hand one to you.

So you need to ignore this issue, I'm afraid.

I left work 28 June and when it came to payday, my manager didn't pay me. I called him and he said he will do the calculation via email. He now says I owe the firm money because he is not paying for all of my holiday pay... I took 11 days and he says I am entitled to 6 as its calculated pro rota. I emailed back to tell him Im not paying because he didnt tell me beforehand he wasnt paying my holiday neither was i planning to leave....

This is standard with any organisation. If you get 20 days AL per year, and take all 20 in January then leave, do you think you should be paid for them? Holiday is always pro ratad.

Similarly if you leave halfway through the year and haven't taken any holiday that year, they would owe YOU 10 days. That's just how it works in the workplace. Obviously, as this is your first job, you hadn't realised that. But it is absolutely correct, and the only way to be fair to employers and employees. Otherwise you could start a job on Jan 1st, take 4 weeks leave, then b*gger off!

i left without any notice as I had no contract and i explained all of this to my manager before i left.

I'm sorry you feel were treated unfairly, but this has no bearing on the facts. In work, you have to separate the emotion out, I'm afraid, and use the correct procedures such as raising a formal grievance.

The fact that you had no contract, as I explained, is not relevant. Therefore you walked out without serving your notice. This isn't acceptable, and you may have cost the firm money.

My manager is now saying I should pay the firm back otherwise he will take action.

Im wondering what i should do next and what my rights are? Sorry if this doesnt make sense, theres a lot more drama but im trying to cut it short.

In short, they owe YOU for any days worked for which you have not been paid.

You owe THEM for holiday taken which you hadn't yet accured (the pro rata issue), and the remainder of the loan for the course.

The company can take action if you don't pay, so sort it out ASAP.

KiKi

Savvy_Sue

EconomicsGirl wrote: »

Holiday pay is normally pro rata and often for whole months only i.e. if you start on 2 Feb you get no holiday pay for Feb and if you leave on 28 June you get no holiday pay for June. Depends on your contract but that's a standard one.

Personally I think that's neither standard nor legal: you start to accrue the right to paid holiday on your first day, and you continue to accrue that right until your last day. If you start or leave part way through a month, then those months should be pro rata as well as the number of full months pro rata to a full year, if that makes sense.

KiKi

Savvy_Sue wrote: »

Personally I think that's neither standard nor legal: you start to accrue the right to paid holiday on your first day, and you continue to accrue that right until your last day. If you start or leave part way through a month, then those months should be pro rata as well as the number of full months pro rata to a full year, if that makes sense.

ITA. I've never seen that as standard. I usually pro-rata by days, as has every organisation I've worked with!