Osteoporosis - any good news?

new_leaf_6

My mum has just been diagnosed with osteoporosis via a Dexa scan. She has it in her wrists, hips and spine. She's 56 and there seems to be no apparent reason for it. No family history and she's never smoked. She's depressed about it so I would like to find something positive to tell her to keep her feeling that she'll lose her independence shortly. Anyone able to help?

Dumyat

try put a positive slant on it...she has found out there is a problem so she can do something about it.

Ted_Hutchinson

As this is a moneysaving forum the answers have to try to be related to finanacial considerations and you should not read them as medical advice.
As you do not say how old your mother is it's difficult to say what DWP benefits she may qualify or be about to qualify but the sooner an application is made the sooner the benefit will apply. See the benefit forum sticky for DLA, AA, and if she's been working and isn't retired IB.
Financial support : Directgov - Disabled people

While it is bound to happen because doctors working for these charities are bound by their professional responsibilities to give advice within the consensus of medical opinion, it is inevitable that the most recent research, is by definition, outside of the current consensus, because it has only just been realised. The OFFICIAL recommended intakes for Vitamin d given at the National Osteoporosis Society are hopelessly outdated and for someone who has the potential genetic predisposition for Ostoeporosis to follow those guidelines, is to court disaster. The most recent research is available here and you can find the cheapest source of vitamin d here The cost is roughly $39 which works out at £20ish about 20p capsule and only one a fortnight will be needed once a reasonable level has been achieved. So probably 15 capsules £3 a year, as sunbathing is for free from April till October.

Recommendations for a COST EFFECTIVE (an amount that a normal body needs daily, no more no less given we cannot get sufficient from diet nor in the UK from sunlight until April) can be found here
That level of supplementation is also considered in this research here as suitable to help the inevitable depression
If she has been prescibed vitamin d medications it would be worth checking The case against ergocalciferol (vitamin D2) as a vitamin ... as many UK doctors haven't kept up to date and are still prescibing the least effective form and what makes me really sick is that there is no warning at NOS Makes you wonder if the society is more in the business of creating more sufferers of the condition than lowering those numbers.

nappentass

Ted_Hutchinson wrote:

The OFFICIAL recommended intakes for Vitamin d given at the National Osteoporosis Society are hopelessly outdated and for someone who has the potential genetic predisposition for Ostoeporosis to follow those guidelines, is to court disaster. The most recent research is available here and you can find the cheapest source of vitamin d here The cost is roughly $39 which works out at £20ish about 20p capsule and only one a fortnight will be needed once a reasonable level has been achieved. So probably 15 capsules £3 a year, as sunbathing is for free from April till October..

Thanks for the great info on vit D Ted.
I want to increase my supplements of calcium & Vit D (perimenopause and food intolerances suggesting this would be a good idea) so wondered if there was also any more research information about calcium you may have found in your investigations? Obviously I want to find the most effective formulations for my money (being out of work at the mo) and, thanks to information from good people like yourself, realise that all supplements are not equal.
TIA
Jill

Ted_Hutchinson

nappentass wrote:

I want to increase my supplements of calcium & Vit D (perimenopause and food intolerances suggesting this would be a good idea)

Calcium foodsources as I make my own yoghurt every week and have kefir on the go all the time I've no problem getting sufficient calcium from food sources, even if I didn't use milk we have always had a spinach/swiss chard patch for picking greens each week as well as having a nut seed sprinkle always available for cheering up the yoghurts or crumbles. So I've never really thought about having to use supplements for calcium.
I'm also a big fan of Sardines in tomato sauce and these will have a good bit of calcium Whenever I make stock for soup out of bones or poultry carcasses I always add a bit of acid, lemon juice, vinegar to dissolve some calcium from the bones. So you will see why I've not thought it necessary to buy calcium in supplement form.
I personally think most of the information on Coral calcium is hype and I'm not persuaded by it.
I'll do a bit more research on prices tomorrow and edit it into this post.
But while I'm doing so maybe you should read Owen R. Fonorow views on the subject.

Prices
Zipvit Calcium 400 Magnesium 200 x 240 = £11.95 = 5p approx each 10p for 800mg caclium
Simply Supplements Calcium 400 Mag200 360 =£14.99 = 4.2p 8.2p for 800mg calcium
Healthspan Per four tablets: Calcium – 800mg, Magnesium – 300mg, Zinc – 5mg, Vitamin D – 5mcg (200iu), Copper – 1.2mg, Boron – 3mg. 360 tablets £12.95 3.6 but note they recommend 4 of these = 14.4p 800mg calcium
Healthy Direct Vitamin D3 (Cholecalciferol) 1.25mcg Vitamin C (Ascorbic Acid) 125mg Calcium 200mg Magnesium 75mg Zinc 3.75mg (25% RDA) Boron 1.5mg* Copper 0.5mg*Manganese 0.5mg* 360=£11.95 13.3p 800mg calcium
However Healthy direct have a 24% cashback at Quidco so this may bring the price down to 10p
Holland and Barrett Calcium 333.3mg Magnesium 133.3mg Zinc 8.3mg 100 =£3.24=3.2 6.4p for 666mg as opposed to 800 or 9.6p for 999mg but also with zinc there ones without zinc are not on offer and thus much more expensive.
Boots Osteocare work out at 10.0p each but are on 3 for 2 but I can't see how much calcium is in them.

sasparillo

Biochemically/scientifically there is no justification for what is hype about calcium.

It is zinc and magnesium which is needed to improve bone density, not calcium. In fact too much of calcium can cause kidney stones and infertility in pre-menopausal women. Much osteoporosis now has been caused by previous use of steroid sex hormone drugs (eg the Pill, jab, implant, hormonal iud, patch, HRT and similar drugs prescribed to mask menstrual problems and acne). These steroid hormone drugs can cause tiny blood clots (microthrombi) in the bone which leads to osteoporosis.

Have a look at these British Medical Journal letters by a gynecologist/obstetrician

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/eletters/330/7496/859#104597

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/eletters/330/7487/342#96901 (fifth and sixth paragraphs)

It is very sad that women are not warned about this and calcium is so hyped. It would save the NHS so much money.

Robothell

Osteoporosis is essentially bones becoming brittle due to a number of reasons. The best info I could pass on would be direct reference to the National Institute for Clinical Excellence's (NICE) guidelines from 2005

"Osteoporosis occurs when there is a loss of some of the materials that make up bones. As a result the bones become fragile and can break (fracture) easily. The bones most likely to break are the hips, wrists and spine. Bone is a living structure and is constantly being broken down and renewed. In older people, gradual thinning of the bone occurs when more bone is broken down than is replaced. This bone loss is a natural part of the ageing process, but it
occurs faster in some people than others, increasing the risk of osteoporosis. Women who have gone through the menopause are at particular risk because their ovaries no longer produce oestrogen, which helps to protect against bone loss."

The full copy of the public information leaflet on treatment of OP is available free at NICE guidelines and covers the common treatments including bisphosphonates etc. Notably it does not mention treatment with vitamin d/calcium supplements but it is widely recognised that these are required to replace osteoporotic bone with good quality structured bone in addition to the other measures. Most specialist clinics will check for vitamin D levels but, in the absence of this facility, the general consensus is that they should be supplemented. There are several good quality and reliable clinical trials out there to confirm this cheap and effective treatment (for example BMJ 2003). There's a very good review article from 2006 in the BMJ also. I would not be worried too much about kidney stones as, normally, any excess is excreted by the body and should not precipitate kidney stones in the absence of any other abnormality.

I disagree with sasparillo's comment about the overuse of contraceptives ...... most cases are multi-factorial and it would be obtuse to blame contraceptives. They can contribute in some cases but are a risk factor rather than a stand alone cause.

Ted_Hutchinson

Carbonated Cola Drinks Drop Bone Density in Women is also worth bringing to readers of this thread.

Coke, Pepsi, and their carbonated cola cousins, including decaf and diet versions, is associated with lower bone mineral density in older women.

The surprising thing about this is that these significant findings were found in regular Cola consumption as low as four servings a week for women.

This Explains what happens when you drink Cola and I suspect the drop in bone Density is related to these bits of the process The phosphoric acid binds calcium, magnesium and zinc in your lower intestine then It is now assured that you’ll evacuate the bonded calcium, magnesium and zinc.

So there appears very little point in buying any kind of Calcium/magnesium/zinc tablets if you then proceed to take them with a drink of cola to wash them down.

sasparillo

Robothell wrote:

Osteoporosis is essentially bones becoming brittle due to a number of reasons. The best info I could pass on would be direct reference to the National Institute for Clinical Excellence's (NICE) guidelines from 2005

"Osteoporosis occurs when there is a loss of some of the materials that make up bones. As a result the bones become fragile and can break (fracture) easily. The bones most likely to break are the hips, wrists and spine. Bone is a living structure and is constantly being broken down and renewed. In older people, gradual thinning of the bone occurs when more bone is broken down than is replaced. This bone loss is a natural part of the ageing process, but it
occurs faster in some people than others, increasing the risk of osteoporosis. Women who have gone through the menopause are at particular risk because their ovaries no longer produce oestrogen, which helps to protect against bone loss."

The full copy of the public information leaflet on treatment of OP is available free at NICE guidelines and covers the common treatments including bisphosphonates etc. Notably it does not mention treatment with vitamin d/calcium supplements but it is widely recognised that these are required to replace osteoporotic bone with good quality structured bone in addition to the other measures. Most specialist clinics will check for vitamin D levels but, in the absence of this facility, the general consensus is that they should be supplemented. There are several good quality and reliable clinical trials out there to confirm this cheap and effective treatment (for example BMJ 2003). There's a very good review article from 2006 in the BMJ also. I would not be worried too much about kidney stones as, normally, any excess is excreted by the body and should not precipitate kidney stones in the absence of any other abnormality.

I disagree with sasparillo's comment about the overuse of contraceptives ...... most cases are multi-factorial and it would be obtuse to blame contraceptives. They can contribute in some cases but are a risk factor rather than a stand alone cause.

Hi,

You may disagree with me but there are sound scientific/biochemical reasons that have never been refuted that steroids such as the steroid sex hormones in the Pill and HRT do cause osteoporosis and are now major factors.

Noone refutes that steroids, including the powerful steroids in the Pill, can cause osteoporosis, especially long term use of such steroids.

These drugs are just as powerful as other steroids such as prednisone which are also accepted as causing osteoporosis. It's simply going against basic biochemical fact to claim that these drugs are not a major factor in the development of osteoporosis in women and girls who have been prescribed steroid sex hormones such as the Pill, HRT and similar drugs.

It is widely publicized that both men and women who take corticosteroids are at major increased risk of osteoporosis. Yet the same medically accepted but not widely publicized risks of taking the Pill, HRT and similar drugs are suppressed in the popular media - it is not possible that women suddenly change their physiological make-up so that they are affected by corticosteroids but not by prescribed steroid sex hormones. It is physiological nonsense.

The Pill, HRT and similar drugs prescribed to mask acne and menstrual problems (including in young girls who are still developing) affects the inner lining type of bone, the trabecular. It's essential that the trabecular has a good blood supply. However the trabecular can also be affected by miniscule blood clots which women and girls who take the Pill and HRT and similar drugs develop.

It has been demonstrated that lack of calcium does cause soft bones but deficiency of magnesium causes thin bones and osteoporosis. Low serum calcium is extremely rare in any case. Women with osteoporosis usually do not have low serum calcium levels. Calcium supplementation not only can cause kidney stones and infertility in pre-menopausal women but also can interfere with iron and zinc absorption which can have extremely serious effects on health. In younger women women calcium supplementation can interfere with normal hormone production blocking luteal hormone binding to corpus luteum receptors which can result in cysts dissolving prematurely. It has also been demonstrated that populations with the lowest calcium intake actually have the FEWEST hip fractures.

In fact magnesium is the key nutrient. As Dr Guy Abrahams has pointed out, taking steroid hormones is an important cause of osteoporosis. Magnesium prevents too much parathyroid hormone being released which increases bone mineral loss.

Low magnesium affects cell membrane transport and this in turn leads to too much sodium, a swelling of the cells and consequent calcium loss which leads to bone thinning or osteoporosis.

Mangesium levels inside cells are lowered by prescribed steroid sex hormones, particularly progesterone/progestagens but oestrogens also cause increased magnesium deficiency.

Women with osteoporosis taking prescribed steroid sex hormones have lower bone alkaline phosphatase, an enzyme which helps int he manufacture of new bone, than women with osteoporosis who do not take prescribed steroid sex hormones. Even women who are taking the right supplements but are still taking prescribed steroid sex hormones such as HRT (smaller doses than the same steroids in the Pill) have abnormally low levels of alkaline phosphatase and do not make new bone.

Zinc deficiency is also a major cause of osteoporosis and since the widespread prescription of the Pill there has also, worryingly, been a marked fall in children's zinc levels. The steroids in the Pill irrefutably lower zinc levels.

High serum copper levels can also be a factor. Women can still be copper deficient whilst having high serum copper levels. Zinc and copper has to be very carefully administered as giving them in the wrong quantities can cause both zinc and copperlevels to fall. Long term use of prescribed steroid sex hormones such as those in the Pill or hormones used in fertility treatment can cause extreme high serum copper levels.

Amongst several other vitamins and minerals (I won't go into all the minutiae of the nutrients delineated by Dr John Howard, Dr Guy Abrahams and Dr Ellen Grant but all nutrients act in synthesis and to pick out just one nutrient is plainly unscientific), vitamin D, vitamin K, Folic Acid, Vitamin B6 are all important.

As Dr Ellen Grant remarks bone is much, more more than just a mass of calcium crystals. Bone is a living thing, needing a lot of different nutrients and healthy blood vessels (which prescribed steroid sex hormones in the Pill, HRT and similar drugs prescribed to young girls and women to mask acne and menstrual problems can deplete and damage).

There is no doubt that all these prescribed steroid sex hormones can cause tiny thrombi (blood clots) in the the blood vessels of the bone, especially when stress hormones are present (and prescribed steroid sex hormones can interfere with the stress hormones, for example leading to high blood pressure and panic attacks as well).

This and multiple nutrient deficiencies which prescribed steroid sex hormones can either cause or exaggerate are obviously major factors now in the increased risk of osteoporosis nowadays - an increased risk which corresponds with the wider and wider prescription of these drugs.

May I take this opportunity, even so, to wish you and everyone else on the board a Happy New Year whereever you are! :xmassmile

nappentass

Wow - thanks to everyone for some amazing information above.

FWIW I have problems with dairy produce, grains, some meats (over time) and a lot of prescribed medications including antibiotics & nsaid painkillers! - so have used supplements frequently over the years more as a safety net for what I likely won't be getting from my diet, above all I know how I can be seriously affected by what I eat when I get it wrong!
I've also been using 'kitchen pharmacy' and home remedies wherever possible, because of these issues.
Thanks to "The wisdom of menopause by Chris Northrup" have discovered increased supplements of vit c & magnesium at that time drastically diminish my period cramps, it also seems to help me with some of the vague joint pains I'm recently getting. So I'm continuing experimenting, trying out to find out what supplements works best for me, and to be the healthiest I can be during this stage of my life

The information, site links and enthusiasm you all have is great - thank all of you so very much for your time spent.

Thanks
Jill

Ted_Hutchinson

nappentass wrote:

Thanks to "The wisdom of menopause by Chris Northrup" have discovered increased supplements of vit c & magnesium at that time drastically diminish my period cramps, it also seems to help me with some of the vague joint pains I'm recently getting. So I'm continuing experimenting, trying out to find out what supplements works best for me, and to be the healthiest I can be during this stage of my life

Calcium and vitamin D intake and risk of incident premenstrual syndrome.
Vitamin d Chronic Pain research