self employment and utr number

monkeynuts1

can someone please advise me here??

do i have to produce a UTR number, before someone can pay me for a job??

i have looked at this online and it seems to be a ref number thats between me and the tax office, which they will use when they write to me and send me a tax return to fill in.

i have a job, i am EMPLOYED, but have helped this person out over the last week during a weeks holiday (baby on the way and need extra cash) and now he is saying that he cant pay me unless i give him this number. is this right??? can i not give him a proper bill/invoice for the work involved and declare it in the following tax year?? as i have a job, i obviously dont have a UTR number.

my brother is self employed, and he gives his customers invoices for each job. as does the plumber who came and fixed the loo!! should they be giving a UTR number to all and sundry as well?? starting to look like he doesnt want to pay me. he doesnt want me to go through the books as an employee just for a week and wants it on a sort of self employed basis. think i'm stuffed!!!!!

just dont know what to do.

KiKi

monkeynuts1 wrote: »

i have a job, i am EMPLOYED, but have helped this person out over the last week during a weeks holiday (baby on the way and need extra cash) and now he is saying that he cant pay me unless i give him this number. is this right??? can i not give him a proper bill/invoice for the work involved and declare it in the following tax year?? as i have a job, i obviously dont have a UTR number.

starting to look like he doesnt want to pay me. he doesnt want me to go through the books as an employee just for a week and wants it on a sort of self employed basis. think i'm stuffed!!!!!

If you are self-employed, then normally you don't need to give your UTR to customers, no. You send an invoice and receive the money without it. He may have asked because:

a) he is treating you as a subcontractor as part of the CIS scheme (which does require your UTR)
b) he is surreptitiously checking you are registered as self-employed

Either way, a couple of other things: you can't declare it in the next tax year; you have to declare it this year. If it was a one-off, you may not need to register as self-employed, but can fill in a tax return at the end of the year. Call HMRC to check.

(Incidentally, it's absolutely fair enough that he doesn't pay you as an employed person for a week! For starters, it may not be allowed by your current employer, and secondly, setting you up on payroll with your NI and tax is a pain in the backside to do.)

So firstly, establish why he wants to know. If it's the subcontracting route, then you will have to register as self-employed, get a UTR and then sort payment out. If not, explain that you will pay the appropriate tax as a self-employed person and invoice him without the information.

HTH
KiKi

PlutoinCapricorn

This point has come up before: a UTR number shows that you self assess, but is not evidence that you are registered as self employed. There are many other reasons why people submit tax returns: they are landlords, ministers of religion for example or have some untaxed income to declare that does not come from work.

And even if you are registered as self employed, it does not mean that you can do all work on that basis. The nature of the relationship and terms and conditions determine whether or not you should be treated as an employee for a particular assignment. In your case, you do not seem like an employee. If this is a one-off, you need not actually register as self employed, but you do need to declare extra income, which is where we come back to the UTR. I woudn't go through the sole trader registration/deregistration procedures just for one week's work.

I am self employed and invoice people without giving them my UTR.

monkeynuts1

thanks for all the great advice.

i will give him an invoice today and see what happens.

PlutoinCapricorn

Many people do not try to get to the bottom of these things. Once you understand the rationale, it becomes clearer.

The person who is paying you needs to protect himself from HMRC: if they ever check his affairs and decide that the relationship was that of employer and employee they may fine him for not paying employer's NI and deducting your tax and NI. Also, there is a danger that employers will exploit people by forcing them to work for them on a self employed basis so as to avoid employer's NI, paying holiday and sick pay etc.

This does not apply in your case, and for just a short assignment an invoice should be enough: I have seen people prepare a little 'proposal' for the work and declare "I will be responsible for my own tax and insurance": it could even go on the invoice. If you are not an employee, then only you are responsible for your affairs. Unless of course you are in IT or the construction industry.

dmliverpool

PlutoinCapricorn wrote: »

Many people do not try to get to the bottom of these things. Once you understand the rationale, it becomes clearer.

The person who is paying you needs to protect himself from HMRC: if they ever check his affairs and decide that the relationship was that of employer and employee they may fine him for not paying employer's NI and deducting your tax and NI. Also, there is a danger that employers will exploit people by forcing them to work for them on a self employed basis so as to avoid employer's NI, paying holiday and sick pay etc.

This does not apply in your case, and for just a short assignment an invoice should be enough: I have seen people prepare a little 'proposal' for the work and declare "I will be responsible for my own tax and insurance": it could even go on the invoice. If you are not an employee, then only you are responsible for your affairs. Unless of course you are in IT or the construction industry.

Agreed this sounds like sub contract work and the contractor is checking your registered which happened to me. If its sub work they generally pay your tax for you before paying you like employed work.

Hammyman

monkeynuts1 wrote: »

i have a job, i am EMPLOYED, but have helped this person out over the last week during a weeks holiday (baby on the way and need extra cash) and now he is saying that he cant pay me unless i give him this number. is this right???

No it is not right. You do not need a UTR number to invoice someone and neither do you need to give them your UTR number or put it on any paperwork, the exception being the construction industry depending on how you are paid.

silverjay

If the person/company you are working for is registered for Construction Industry Scheme (CIS) and the work you are doing falls within the scope of the CIS scheme then he does have to run a check before paying you to see if you are registered with the scheme. He requires your CIS UTR to identify you with the tax office to get you validated to see if he has to deduct tax at 20/30% or pay you gross depending on your status. You would then reclaim/set off the tax deducted by him against your tax payable.

If you are not CIS registered then he needs to treat you as a freelance and pay you against invoice.

He may just be using the CIS/UTR request as a reason for delaying payment.

There should always be a formal agreement in place before any work takes place to ensure the person you are working for does not fall foul of the employed/self-employed rules and regulations laid down by HMRC.

sandraroffey

my son had a similar prob last summer. it was a delaying tactic, they just didnt have the money to pay him. got it after a couple of weeks though. hope you get yours ok.