was it worth it, am I rich?

margaretclare

allan2011 wrote: »

I was wondering how much money per month a couple over 65 who have made no provision for their retirement would have left over, after paying all their bills such as council house rent, if they paid any, council tax, again if they paid any and other bills?

Their only income being state pensions and any benefits.

I and my wife have just paid off our mortgage, so no rent but because we paid into pension funds and saved money we are entitled to no benefits.

So we have to pay £1980 council tax a year whereas if our savings were less than £16,000 we would get something.

Our fixed outgoings are £500 per month, plus food and drink and going out once a week, say another £500 a month, and we are saving £350 a month.

So was/is it worth it?

I think the first part of this question is impossible to answer because there are so many unknown variables, some of which are mentioned: whether they live in a council house and pay rent, or whether they pay council tax and any other bills.

What occurred to me immediately was 'if they made no provision for their retirement'. Well, if they had worked they would have at least paid NI contributions - they'd have no choice about that. 2 options there: did they both pay full NI contributions, in which case they would at the very least receive £102.15 a week each. If the wife had opted for the married women's contribution he would receive £102.15 and she would receive 60% of that i.e. £61.29. So, either £204.30 between them, or £163.44. So, immediately there are unknown variables. Another possibility is that either or both of them might be on either DLA or AA, which would be added to the total. These particular benefits are not dependent on savings/no savings - they are non-means-testable and non-taxable.

My point is: without going into people's personal circumstances in detail it is impossible to know and even less, to make any meaningful judgments.

'If your savings were less than £16,000 you would get something'. No, you wouldn't necessarily. DH and I haven't got that anything like that amount of savings and we get no means-tested benefits. That's because of income, not because of savings. I don't hanker after getting into the means-tested merry-go-round and I do not envy any of those who say they 'get everything paid for'. Not for one moment!

We pay £113 a month for the council tax, that's 'C' band on a 2-bedroom bungalow. That's the biggest item of our monthly outgoings. We each put in £170 a month to our current account to cover all regular outgoings, utilities, phone, fuel and even the milk bill. We also put in another £170 a month which covers car expenses, petrol, food. So, £680 a month covers all the basics. We each save. I'm putting £150 a month into my stocks-and-shares ISA and £50 into a building society. Every week my one-to-one swimming lesson costs me £15, plus the petrol to get there. DH doesn't save on a regular basis, but he's just paid off the remainder of the £2K loan he got last autumn when we changed the car. Our Shetland holiday in May cost just over £1K and we shared the cost of that.

I don't think you were a fool, and I think those folk like your relative should shut up with the 'boasting' because he should sit down and think where does it come from, the money for what he thinks of as his lovely unpaid-for lifestyle? DH and I are still paying tax, not a lot, but quite honestly we wouldn't have it any other way.

chesky369

................a relative who never did anything keeps boasting that he gets everything paid for him and I was a fool to scrimp and save for my retirement...................

I reckon that's a case of whistling in the dark. People who are totally at one with their situation have no need to boast.

Bunter_2

I agree that there are so many variables. One of the most important considerations is housing. If you can be at peace in your own home then you are wealthy indeed. The Council; Housing Associations; and the private rented sector can all very often offer excellent homes. But of course if you are marooned on a run-down housing estate, with no means of escape then that is not a good place to be, in your retirement.

What kind of car do you drive?? Can you make do with a small, economical car or does it have to be a status symbol?? What kind of holidays do you like?? Are you happy exploring the UK or must it be expensive holidays abroad?? These kind of choices can make a considerable difference to your (percieved) financial needs in retirement.

I have a works pension and the state pension and some modest savings that should last me a few years to come. As I survey the future at 70+ my biggest concern is not whether I will have enough income and capital to see me through the coming years. Quite the opposite in fact. My biggest fear is that I will croak it before I have spent all my savings.

The idea that some worthless nephew will be wining and dining the wenches on my unspent accumulated wealth keeps me awake at night. Of course there is always the dogs home. I like dogs, especially yappy little Yorkshire Terriers. I grew up with them.

I think that people when they plan their pensions make one great error. They look at life expectancy tables and think, well I am going to live to be 86 so I have to plan for about 25 years of good living in retirement. What they do not take in to account is that as you get older your appetites decrease and your physical powers start to decline, and hence you need less to spend. Some dotty pensioners delude themselves that it is all in the mind and go off bungee jumping and leaping out of aeroplanes but most of the rest of us know that the reality is different. It is a rare man, in my opinion, who does not need the help of at least 50 mgs of Sildenafil Citrate after the age of 60, if not before.

Another great myth, seems to be that if you have to rely on pension credit then you will spend your retirement eating beans on toast and hiding from creditors. I look around at friends who are on pension credit and I just dont see this happening. One friend on PC has his nice little caravan in Wales. He has to rent it out in the summer months to pay the site fees but the point is he manages, and manages very well. He goes abroad for a holiday every year, often twice. If they ever eat beans on toast it is because they like them, not because they have to.

Many of the pensioners I see in Wetherspoons are on PC and they seem to put more time in there than the staff. They are never without a pint, even if it is the cheaper ales on offer. Many of them are out in the front fagging it every 20 minutes. Ciggies are expensive. This is not a beans on toast culture. PC or not; they manage, and often manage very well.

For myself, I am happy running my little old banger and seeing the sights in the UK. I saw a lot of the world when I was in the Merchant Navy and I dont want to see any more.

It is good to have a private pension and some savings but if you did not manage to achieve that then it is not the end of the world. You will still be able to manage a good Friday night Beano and that is probably all you will want. It is no good having loads of money if you havent got the appetite or inclination to spend it. It really is true that we all have only two arms and legs and one mouth and you can only eat and drink so much.

I never paid much attention to pensions when I was young. I felt that life was for living now and sod the future. To some extent I got lucky and ended up with a half decent pension because my employers were doubling lengths of service to get rid of people.

It is good that people are making provision for their retirement, when possible, but what worries me is the number of people who seem to be putting their present lives on hold in the expectation that they can start to live their life when they retire.

It does not work that way, you only have one life and you must live it now. Maybe you will get to live to your eighties but how much of that time will be spent in a care home or scrambling around on a walking frame.

margaretclare

Well thought out and very profound, Bunter. Much common sense here.

Had to smile at the mention of sildenafil. For someone who has had Type 2 diabetes since 1981, unfortunately sildenafil doesn't work. However, it's not the end of the world. There are other ways of expressing love and closeness.

My experience is that people are better with pension provision each, and sharing resources. The people who seem to be poor are those on their own. They haven't even got a little old banger - often, the women never learned to drive, left it all to their husbands and when they're widowed they're stuck with public transport. Free bus passes are not all that useful if there isn't a good bus service or if the bus doesn't take you where you want to go.

If I was to envy anybody, it would be those who can walk. The simplest thing in the world, what any three-year-old can do. There are huge areas of the countryside which are best explored on foot, and cheaply. At present, going to the pool for my swimming lesson and then a couple of times a week going there for practice, that's what really makes me feel alive. I find I do need to keep achieving something, keep trying, never sit back and relax and say 'that's it'. Going to Wetherspoons' - well, we have a Toby restaurant not too far away and it is usually crowded, often you can't get in. We like to go there sometimes - when it's possible to get in - because we like the idea of a carvery. I normally get 3 kinds of meat and then lots of veg. Not even beer, just sparkling water with ice and lemon, but I've seen people go back and pile their plates high as if they were expecting a famine. I don't understand how anyone can afford to smoke, but they do. As you said, they're all outside, you walk through a cloud of smoke whether outside the Toby or outside the hospital.

We don't keep dogs any more because we don't want the responsibility - we like to be able to pick up and go if we feel like it, stop where we like, go as we please. We're a lot better off, in all senses of the word, than a family across the road. Parents in their 80s, he has dementia, she has heart disease, the son who lives with them has just had a leg amputated because of undiagnosed diabetes. He won't even be able to drive his little old banger and mum can't get her shopping.

thistledome

allan2011 wrote: »

So was/is it worth it?

In my opinion, it was worth it. You may have to pay council tax, but you can afford to and you have a nice sum coming in every month. Much more than you would get on benefits.

You also have the satisfaction of knowing that you earned your money by your own efforts. Also, you can save or spend what money you have without worrying about the DWP finding out how much you've got or how much you've spent and investigating your finances.

If you don't think it's worth it (and your opinion is the only one that counts), then that's a shame. If I were you I'd spend less time worrying about what other people think and more time enjoying what you've worked for all those years. Life is short.

Bunter, that was a great post.

Bunter_2

Thank you for your kind comments Margaret,

Sorry to hear about the type 2 diabetes. I used the Sildenafil as an example of how aging affects the body but I suppose one could just as easily point to deteriorating eyesight, knees and hips, and hence why older people invariably need glasses for reading and sometimes undergo operations for replacement hips and knees.

I read so many posts about “pension planning” where people are undoubtedly experts in financial matters but appear to have no understanding of the reality of getting old. I suppose it is understandable really because they are planning for the future and have no experience of getting old.

I do not think there is any harm in pointing out to them that money is only a part of the equation and that there are so many other factors that are important in retirement. Some of the things that you have pointed out, for example, like the value of loving relationships and the simple pleasures of walking in the countryside and swimming at the local leisure centre.

Of course money is important, but we need to get things in perspective. I think it would be educational for some people to visit real poverty in perhaps Ethiopia or Somalia or those parts of India where people maim and disfigure themselves in order that they can scrape a living begging for alms. They might then be a little less dismissive of the welfare system that is available in this country.

Many of us, I think, are obviously “creaking gates” but there is no point in letting adversity get us down. The only way forward is to keep a sense of humour and try to make light of the situation.

On a lighter note, yes; dogs are a responsibility and it is difficult to arrange holidays with them in mind. If I was younger I would definitely have another Yorkie but it would not be fair now as I could not give it the attention that it would need.

With regard to Wetherspoons. Some of the inner-city ones can be a bit rough but generally they are in quite impressive buildings like converted cinemas and attract a good clientele. The nice thing about them is that they are generally large and you can usually find a quiet corner and have a meal, coffee, or a non-alcoholic or alcoholic drink as you wish. They usually have good facilities for disabled people and it is usually a safe place for a woman to go by herself without attracting any unwelcome male attention.

Bar service can sometimes be a little difficult at weekends and holiday periods. Best to go when it is quiet. (Sorry you have not got one near you.).

Bunter_2

thistledome wrote: »

Also, you can save or spend what money you have without worrying about the DWP finding out how much you've got or how much you've spent and investigating your finances.

Lots to agree with in your post Thistledome but I dont think many people are aware that local councils are now making rigorous investigations (including financial checks) into people who are paying council tax but claiming the single persons rebate.
It is claimed that about six percent of people are claiming the rebate although they are not entitled to it.

So, even if you dont claim any means tested benefits, if you are single you are now subject to rigorous financial scrutiny by the council.

I wonder how long it will be before they bring in to their orbit people who are not claiming the single person supplement. They will probably say they are "just checking to see that you are getting your correct entitlement".

Errata

Bunter wrote: »

Lots to agree with in your post Thistledome but I dont think many people are aware that local councils are now making rigorous investigations (including financial checks) into people who are paying council tax but claiming the single persons rebate.
It is claimed that about six percent of people are claiming the rebate although they are not entitled to it.

So, even if you dont claim any means tested benefits, if you are single you are now subject to rigorous financial scrutiny by the council.

I wonder how long it will be before they bring in to their orbit people who are not claiming the single person supplement. They will probably say they are "just checking to see that you are getting your correct entitlement".

I'm one of the many, so that's interesting. Do you have detailed information on the process council's are using?

Savvy_Sue

Bunter wrote: »

With regard to Wetherspoons. Some of the inner-city ones can be a bit rough but generally they are in quite impressive buildings like converted cinemas and attract a good clientele. The nice thing about them is that they are generally large and you can usually find a quiet corner and have a meal, coffee, or a non-alcoholic or alcoholic drink as you wish. They usually have good facilities for disabled people and it is usually a safe place for a woman to go by herself without attracting any unwelcome male attention.

Bar service can sometimes be a little difficult at weekends and holiday periods. Best to go when it is quiet. (Sorry you have not got one near you.).

Agree with all the above, they may not be the most interesting choice but you know what you'll get, there are often 'offers' available, AND they have free Wi-Fi (which may not be relevant very often, but when it is, it's very useful! Also I think that at least some of them have a policy of NOT playing muzak, which is of great benefit to those of us with hearing loss ...

Having said that, DB and I left one because it was so noisy, and continued to use their wi-fi on the (public) seats outside ...

Bunter wrote: »

Lots to agree with in your post Thistledome but I dont think many people are aware that local councils are now making rigorous investigations (including financial checks) into people who are paying council tax but claiming the single persons rebate.
It is claimed that about six percent of people are claiming the rebate although they are not entitled to it.

So, even if you dont claim any means tested benefits, if you are single you are now subject to rigorous financial scrutiny by the council.

I wonder how long it will be before they bring in to their orbit people who are not claiming the single person supplement. They will probably say they are "just checking to see that you are getting your correct entitlement".

See below ...

Errata wrote: »

I'm one of the many, so that's interesting. Do you have detailed information on the process council's are using?

Have just seen my mother, who was INCENSED that the council had just written to her with a form to confirm that she was still living alone, and therefore entitled to the Single Person's Discount. I thought this was perfectly reasonable, but what she and her friends were incensed about was that the council had not enclosed an sae, so they had had to find their own envelopes and stamps ...

I decided not to point out that if an sae HAD been enclosed, she'd have been paying for it from her council tax.

She didn't think this was a particularly efficient method of checking up on her, since if you were intending to defraud the council you would presumably be quite happy to lie on the form. However, I can't see what alternative there is as a starting point, because if she did, for example, move her Toy Boy in, telling the council that she'd done so might be way down her list of priorities, and a gentle reminder would be quite useful!

(Actually, if she DID move her Toy Boy in, it would be all round the Day Centre they go to so fast that someone would be BOUND to find out and snitch on her.)

Bunter_2

Errata wrote: »

I'm one of the many, so that's interesting. Do you have detailed information on the process council's are using?

As Savvy_Sue has said, the council send a letter to people who get the single person rebate asking them to confirm that they continue to be entitled to it. If they are unable to confirm this then they are invited to give the names of anyone else resident at that address.

The letter is titled "Single Person Supplement Review", or something like that, and is conducted by a third party on behalf of the council. I have no idea what the exact process is but apparently the "third party" has links to the credit check agency Experian.