£11k Service charges on leasehold flat.

JQ.

chilihead wrote: »

Hi sc - yes, our own quotes is definitely an idea. I think we would need to be careful about contractors accessing the roof. The terms on the lease state only authorised persons can access the roof - and those persons are authorised by the property management company and the freeholder. The lease states insurance and safety as a concern for roof access (it's flat with no safety guard and 3 stories high), plus possible damage to the roof covering. We could be held liable for breaching the terms of the lease.

There is no loft access and only one spot suitable for ladder access. It would be hard to do surreptitiously.

I really think you're being too cautious. What exactly do you think the freeholder can do if they catch someone on the roof? A reputable builder will have their own insurance and they will be able to gain access, whether that be via ladders or a cherry picker.

You are collectively being asked to spend a massive sum of money - the first thing I would do is get at least 2 independent quotes of my own. To rely on the quotes provided by a person who finacially gains out of a higher quote would be foolish.

I would also demand to see a full specification of works. With this you can present it to an Estimator, who will calculate what the true cost of the works should be, without inspecting the site. We've recently used www.estimators-online.com to cost-up our extension and they were very accurate in comparison to the quotes we've had from builders.

I would also put in writing to the managing agent that they have not provided you with a breakdown of the quotes and therefore you are unable to give consent to the works as they are in breach of the lease.

CarineG

Hi Chilihead,



Very sorry to hear about your predicament. I think the first thing to do is for you and all other leaseholders to write formally to your management company and ask for a copy of all the quotes (in detail). If the lease says they have to provide them, you need to make a formal request. Once you get the quotes, I would have them looked at by other roofing companies and as everyone said, get new quotes too.




I would also complaint using the managing company's complaints procedure, they should provide you with what this procedure is on request. It will help if the case goes to court as they may want to see that you have tried to resolve the situation before taking it to court.



I have found Lease.org.uk very helpful in the past, however they are extemely busy due to so many conflicts with leasehold properties. Application to the LVT is a good idea and that is probably what they will advice.



I am in a similar situation in my building in the sense that we need major repair done to the roof/external walls and many other parts of our building however our managing company have yet to set up a sinking fund for it. The works were ascertained by a building surveyor in 2007 and we are yet to see anything happening. All they have done is sent the notice of works to us all.




My understanding is that your managing company cannot force these works before having the full amount from all leaseholders. Since you are disputing these amounts and have logged a claim, I would be surprised if they enforce their September deadline.



Good luck with this and keep us posted. I am hoping that this doesn't happen with my building.

chilihead

Thanks CArineG. I have written a letter to them - sent by recorded delivery - requesting a breakdown of the quotes and full spec. This was sent well over a week ago, so the formal complaint is my next step.

Fingers crossed everything goes OK with your building.

blckbrd

Just to clarify, having the quotes sent to you, as stated in your lease, is contractual. The right to inspect is statutory. On inspection you should be allowed to copy the documents and if facilities to do so are not made available then copies should be sent to you. Failure to send the documents on simple request would be a breach of the lease rather than non-compliance with the legislation.



The refusal of access to the documentation - as part of the section 20 consultation process - on the grounds of 'commercial sensitivity' is tosh but not an uncommonon misconception. More fool your landlord/mamagement co.


Details of the arrangements for inspection should be contained in the notice and failure to provide details/access may render the notice/consultation defective. Defective consultation determined by an lvt may limit costs to £250 per leaseholder.


It's not clear from your post whether you received 2 formal notices - a notice of intention (we need to do some work, you can nominate a contactor who we can get estimates from) then a notice of proposals/estimates (we want to use contractor x because it's the cheapest and here are the quotes for comparison). Again, failure to comply might be seen as defective consultation. I'm assuming there's no long-term agreement in place because they wouldn't need to provide more than one estimate or serve more than 1 notice in relation to the works otherwise


Though it's not great, it can be the case that the 1st notice is served years before the 2nd. It may be that the roof survey said it would last a few more years before being necessary to be repaired/replaced.


Any financial detriment (increased spec/cost) caused by the 'delay' between 2002 and now could really only be claimed by leaseholders who owned then and still do now but it may be a hard job proving it. Perhaps an explanation of where the sinking fund payments you think you have all been making has gone might help. Though patch repairs may themselves have triggered section 20 consultation.


Given the sums involved, even if a few of you clubbed together for legal advice it may be well worth your while.

chilihead

Thanks blckbrd. The first Section 20 Notice of Intended Expenditure was sent on 8th March. The Second Notice was sent on the 17th June 2011. This mailing contained a service charge demand, and also contained a letter summarising each of the 4 quotes.
E.g. ABC Roofing contractor £300k
DEF Roofing specialist £323k

Detailed, eh? Would anyone really part with £11k without knowing what they are paying for?

Anyhow, I still have not received copies or a breakdown of the quotes – scaffolding costs, insulation, roofing material specs, guarantees, the “sundries” the property management company stated were also included in the quotes, etc. When work has been done previously, full copies of all quotes/specs were sent to all leaseholders for them to inspect in their homes.

I'm still waiting for leasehold-advise.org to get back to me with regard to a lvt.

A couple of us leaseholders are in the process of seeking specialist legal advise.

I have written a formal complaint to the property management company as per the advice I received from RICS (below).

RICS is not empowered to investigate or interfere in our Members’ professional judgement,
opinions and standard of services, unless – and until – there are clear indications that the Rules or specific, mandatory professional regulations, issued by RICS, have been breached. Furthermore, the RICS is not able to award compensation. This is the purpose of the Complaints Handling Procedure (CHP).

Under the RICS Rules of Conduct, firms of chartered surveyors are required to have in place a complaints handling procedure (CHP), which they have to operate on complaints from clients. I recommend that you write a formal letter of complaint to the firm, sent by recorded delivery, setting out the detail of your complaint and requesting their CHP. If you wish, you may advise the firm that you are writing on the advice of RICS Regulation

.

MacMickster

Do you know which companies provided the quotes. If so, I would check that there is no link between those companies and the management company eg common directors.

Martin81162

chilihead wrote: »

Buying out the freehold is not really an option for me due to at least 10 of the flat owners not living within the block. The freeholder owns 4 flats within the block and is pushing for the works to go ahead.

I don't see why it is a problem if some of the owners do not live in the block. As long as at least 75% of the leaseholders submit an application to enfranchise then I don't think they can stop you.

If I were you I would start trying to get the contact details of the absentee leaseholders.

chilihead

Martin81162 wrote: »

As long as at least 75% of the leaseholders submit an application to enfranchise then I don't think they can stop you.

If I were you I would start trying to get the contact details of the absentee leaseholders.

Therein lies one of the problems, Martin. Out of 24 flats, only 7 were represented at the leaseholders meeting. I am aware of another 2 flats that are leasehold occupied, but these people are elusive and have not responded any time we (by we, I mean other neighbours) have knocked on their doors or posted letters.

Plus, the freeholder owns 4 flats.

Some of the flats are owned by leaseholders and let out to council tenants, some are owned by leaseholders and let out to private tenants (either directly or via letting agents). Even getting contact names of other leaseholders is extremely difficult, let alone confirming contact details.

So, out of 24 flats, we have 7 - possibly 9 that could be in agreement to buy the freehold. Falls rather short of 75% and indeed even falls short of the legal min 50%.

Ulfar

You can obtain owner details by checking land registry, you will have to pay for it.

chilihead

MacMickster wrote: »

Do you know which companies provided the quotes. If so, I would check that there is no link between those companies and the management company eg common directors.

Thanks MacMickster. Yes we have the main roofing contracting companies names, so I will definitely start looking into that. Without the full quotes though, we would not see what subcontracting firms the roofing contractors are using, e.g. scaffolding, etc. I don't even know the full extent of the work they are planning and what subcontractors would even be involved. Common directors could well be hidden within the subcontractors.


As an update, my partner and a couple of very good friends work in construction, and we have been busy calling in favours. Two independent chartered surveyors, several scaffolding firms and two flat roofing specialists have offered to review the quotes if/when we receive them, and have also offered to compare materials/products/guarantees etc. They are all based away from the local area, so there is no conflict of interests, but this makes it difficult for them to prepare their own detailed quotes without getting on top of the roof and seeing the state of it - damage/drainage/insulation etc.

The fact I haven't received an acknowledgement from the ProManCo to my recorded delivery letter requesting full copies of the quotes means I am taking the formal complaint route for now. We will also be talking to our construction friends getting an idea of different roofing materials/insulation and their guarantees, costs etc.


I will welcome any other suggestions in the meantime.


As a closing thought - the ProManCo website states one of their mission statements is the following:

Administration and collection of service charges.
This includes the preparation of budgets and setting up of reserve funds to ensure transparency and clarity, as well as a plan for the management and maintenance of your property.

Epic fail on all counts.



Thanks for looking at this thread - I think this will be going on for a long time.