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Spots on dogs
pulliptears
Posts: 14,583 Forumite
And no I don't mean Dalmatians lol
If you have followed my other thread you may know I've been having a few issues with Jack, an 8 year old Scottish Terrier. He's currently undergoing treatment for a severe water infection but has other issues the vet wants to address next week when we have got over this particular hurdle.
The issues stem from his skin. He's never had a problem before and always had a reasonably shiny, healthy coat. He was groomed a few months ago and the shorter hair revealed his skin to be quite dry. I tried a few things, primrose oil, cod liver oil but all to no effect.
A few weeks back I swapped his food from a standard extruded complete biscuit to Arden Grange Senior. His coat seemed to improve.
He went to the groomer again on monday, and whilst the dryness is still there it is much less pronounced. Now, the I've found that now his coat is short I can feel 'lumps' where the dry skin is. On looking closer these lumps are like spots. There aren't many, perhaps 6 or so on his back and a few on his belly. I prodded one and it burst like an acne!
He isn't scratching, certainly hasn't got fleas, ticks or anything else of the sort. His constant companion is my Westie who's skin is perfect with no lumps or bumps at all. I'm totally flummoxed as to what this could be, especially with it being mainly on his back. I've started treating him with a smear of germoline.
As I said the vet is going to have a look next week, but I wanted to ask if any of you had come across anything like this before?
If you have followed my other thread you may know I've been having a few issues with Jack, an 8 year old Scottish Terrier. He's currently undergoing treatment for a severe water infection but has other issues the vet wants to address next week when we have got over this particular hurdle.
The issues stem from his skin. He's never had a problem before and always had a reasonably shiny, healthy coat. He was groomed a few months ago and the shorter hair revealed his skin to be quite dry. I tried a few things, primrose oil, cod liver oil but all to no effect.
A few weeks back I swapped his food from a standard extruded complete biscuit to Arden Grange Senior. His coat seemed to improve.
He went to the groomer again on monday, and whilst the dryness is still there it is much less pronounced. Now, the I've found that now his coat is short I can feel 'lumps' where the dry skin is. On looking closer these lumps are like spots. There aren't many, perhaps 6 or so on his back and a few on his belly. I prodded one and it burst like an acne!
He isn't scratching, certainly hasn't got fleas, ticks or anything else of the sort. His constant companion is my Westie who's skin is perfect with no lumps or bumps at all. I'm totally flummoxed as to what this could be, especially with it being mainly on his back. I've started treating him with a smear of germoline.
As I said the vet is going to have a look next week, but I wanted to ask if any of you had come across anything like this before?
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Comments
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The skin is an organ of excretion, it's one route the body uses to rid itself of unwanted substances and waste products just like the kidneys and bowel. Skin complaints can be symptomatic of many problems including nutritional deficiencies, food intolerances or allergies. Why did you try evening primrose and cod liver oil, were they recommended by your vet? How long did you persevere for? A few weeks is a very short period of time, it can take many months for a deficiency to be righted, the digestive or immune systems to calm down. Are you using a freeze-dried probiotic to repopulate the gut after the antibiotics? What products us the groomer (or you) using on the skin and how frequently?Declutterbug-in-progress.⭐️⭐️⭐️ ⭐️⭐️0
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I'll try and answer your questions:The skin is an organ of excretion, it's one route the body uses to rid itself of unwanted substances and waste products just like the kidneys and bowel. Skin complaints can be symptomatic of many problems including nutritional deficiencies, food intolerances or allergies. Why did you try evening primrose and cod liver oil, were they recommended by your vet?
Yes. At the time dry skin was his only issue, and the lumps were not at all obvious
How long did you persevere for? A few weeks is a very short period of time, it can take many months for a deficiency to be righted, the digestive or immune systems to calm down.
Not Long. He developed diarrhoea soon after I started him on the cod liver and primrose. As that was the only change to his diet I decided to stop giving him those and change his food altogether to something that was much more nutritional and contained both those items anyway.
Are you using a freeze-dried probiotic to repopulate the gut after the antibiotics?
No. He's still on Antibiotics until next week. As things stand I don't want to introduce anything alien to him and cause him an upset tummy which may compound his existing issues. If this is something the vet recommends next week then Ill do so.
What products us the groomer (or you) using on the skin and how frequently?
He's been with the same groomer for 4 years. She hasn't changed her products as I checked. She was the one who initially highlighted the dryness.
I rarely use any products on him at all. He's bathed probably once every 4 weeks or so in a tea tree shampoo he's had from puppyhood and he's occasionally spruced with a little dog deodorant that we have been using for several years.0 -
pulliptears wrote: »I'll try and answer your questions:
Yes. At the time dry skin was his only issue, and the lumps were not at all obvious
Not Long. He developed diarrhoea soon after I started him on the cod liver and primrose. As that was the only change to his diet I decided to stop giving him those and change his food altogether to something that was much more nutritional and contained both those items anyway.
No. He's still on Antibiotics until next week. As things stand I don't want to introduce anything alien to him and cause him an upset tummy which may compound his existing issues. If this is something the vet recommends next week then Ill do so.
He's been with the same groomer for 4 years. She hasn't changed her products as I checked. She was the one who initially highlighted the dryness.
I rarely use any products on him at all. He's bathed probably once every 4 weeks or so in a tea tree shampoo he's had from puppyhood and he's occasionally spruced with a little dog deodorant that we have been using for several years.
Did your vet explain why they were recommending cod liver oil specifically? Fish oils are usually used for the anti-inflammatory long chain omega-3 content, but cod liver oil is a very poor source. Would I be right in thinking your vet is not a youngster? Looking at Arden Grange it contains 0.3% omega-3, however this is a mix of linseed and fish oil. Linseed provides short chain 0-3 which need to be converted to the useable long chain format. This process is inefficient so linseeds are only of benefit in a vegan diet IMO. There is also cranberry extract in Arden Grange, does your vet know which bacteria caused the water infection? Do they think dehydration is a factor? What does your vet think the cause of the diarrhoea is? Did this occur before the water infection?
A good food will contain a maintenance dose of essential fats, this is unlikely to be sufficient to right a chronic deficiency should one exist. The ratio of omega-6 to long chain omega-3 is critical, it is worth asking your vet what is optimal for canines. The old food may well have been high in O-6 (inflammatory) and low in 0-3 (anti-inflammatory) so this may need correcting over several months.
You are absolutely right to check with the vet, but this might be done over the telephone. Freeze-dried probiotics are unlikely to upset the digestion as they are nothing more than bacteria. Some products contain soluble fibres or kaolin that can help bind poops and settle the gut. Diarrhoea - from antibiotics or otherwise - aggravate the digestive system, worsening any allergies or intolerances so 'benign neglect' is not always the best policy.
Which products is the groomer using, do you know the ingredients of hers and yours? Whether they are new or not is not relevant, allergies or irritation can develop at any time. I have both atopic eczema and contact dermatitis (skin allergies). My eczema is sensitive to products that do not aggravate the healthy skin. Sulphate surfactants (in most human shampoos, shower gels, hand wash, washing up liquid, aqueous cream, etc!) are my skin's killer, this is a problem well known to the medical profession. Why do you bathe your dog every month, does his coat become greasy? Doggy odour can be caused or contributed to by diet, hopefully the changes you are making will enable you to stop using scented products.
Declutterbug-in-progress.⭐️⭐️⭐️ ⭐️⭐️0 -
Did your vet explain why they were recommending cod liver oil specifically? Fish oils are usually used for the anti-inflammatory long chain omega-3 content, but cod liver oil is a very poor source. Would I be right in thinking your vet is not a youngster?
It was just a passing comment to use it for skin issues, the dog wasn't showing anything severe, just a slight flaking so it was more of a remark in conversation.
Looking at Arden Grange it contains 0.3% omega-3, however this is a mix of linseed and fish oil. Linseed provides short chain 0-3 which need to be converted to the useable long chain format. This process is inefficient so linseeds are only of benefit in a vegan diet IMO. There is also cranberry extract in Arden Grange, does your vet know which bacteria caused the water infection? Do they think dehydration is a factor? What does your vet think the cause of the diarrhoea is? Did this occur before the water infection?
The diarrhoea was weeks before the infection. I doubt it was caused by dehydration as he's a good drinker. As for the Arden Grange, the change in him was apparent within days, brighter coat, more energy and much happier little dog. I can see the results of the changeover in front of me
A good food will contain a maintenance dose of essential fats, this is unlikely to be sufficient to right a chronic deficiency should one exist. The ratio of omega-6 to long chain omega-3 is critical, it is worth asking your vet what is optimal for canines. The old food may well have been high in O-6 (inflammatory) and low in 0-3 (anti-inflammatory) so this may need correcting over several months.
You are absolutely right to check with the vet, but this might be done over the telephone. Freeze-dried probiotics are unlikely to upset the digestion as they are nothing more than bacteria. Some products contain soluble fibres or kaolin that can help bind poops and settle the gut. Diarrhoea - from antibiotics or otherwise - aggravate the digestive system, worsening any allergies or intolerances so 'benign neglect' is not always the best policy.
He doesn't have diarrhoea at present and is eating, drinking and weeing normally. He is also lively and alert so with that in mind I'm loathe to add anything at present. I will mention it to the vet next week though.
Which products is the groomer using, do you know the ingredients of hers and yours? Whether they are new or not is not relevant, allergies or irritation can develop at any time. I have both atopic eczema and contact dermatitis (skin allergies). My eczema is sensitive to products that do not aggravate the healthy skin. Sulphate surfactants (in most human shampoos, shower gels, hand wash, washing up liquid, aqueous cream, etc!) are my skin's killer, this is a problem well known to the medical profession. Why do you bathe your dog every month, does his coat become greasy? Doggy odour can be caused or contributed to by diet, hopefully the changes you are making will enable you to stop using scented products.
He's always been bathed every month or so, not for grease but mostly if he's been on a muddy walk etc. If the products used were irritating I'd have expected to see them all over, not in a small patch on his body, I'd also expect to see some reddening, itching or at least irritation of the area and there is none at all. Just a small flake of skin with a green acne type spot underneath it.0 -
Could well be the start of whats known as westie skin
Not confined to westies but its a yeast infection - my cocker has developed it
Nightmare to control once it takes hold - anti fungal shampoo is about the only treatment
But you do need a proper diagnosis from your vet so till you see him again I wouldn't be messing about with diet or food supplements.
I changed my lad to the lamb and rice arden grange and have seen an improvement - he was on the chicken and rice before0 -
Could well be the start of whats known as westie skin
Not confined to westies but its a yeast infection - my cocker has developed it
Nightmare to control once it takes hold - anti fungal shampoo is about the only treatment
But you do need a proper diagnosis from your vet so till you see him again I wouldn't be messing about with diet or food supplements.
I changed my lad to the lamb and rice arden grange and have seen an improvement - he was on the chicken and rice before
Its very odd. I'd liken it to teenage acne but just confined to his back and bum. The germoline seems to be working a treat actually so I'll carry on with that until he's seen again next week. He is starting to resemble a reversed Dalmatian
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pulliptears wrote: »It was just a passing comment to use it for skin issues, the dog wasn't showing anything severe, just a slight flaking so it was more of a remark in conversation.
He's always been bathed every month or so, not for grease but mostly if he's been on a muddy walk etc. If the products used were irritating I'd have expected to see them all over, not in a small patch on his body, I'd also expect to see some reddening, itching or at least irritation of the area and there is none at all. Just a small flake of skin with a green acne type spot underneath it.
The diarrhoea was weeks before the infection. I doubt it was caused by dehydration as he's a good drinker. As for the Arden Grange, the change in him was apparent within days, brighter coat, more energy and much happier little dog. I can see the results of the changeover in front of me
He doesn't have diarrhoea at present and is eating, drinking and weeing normally. He is also lively and alert so with that in mind I'm loathe to add anything at present. I will mention it to the vet next week though.
You should clarify with the vet why cod liver oil was recommended and not fish body oils. The current 'acne' could be the result of the antibiotic treatment - not only do antibiotics wipe out the gut flora but they also affect the balance of microorganisms on the skin, as Suki1964 alludes to.
Skin irritation does not work like that: for a start there are more sebaceous glands on some parts of the body than others. Skin that is already dry, irritated or broken is far more likely to react to topical applications than healthy skin, whereas areas with more sebaceous glands will more often react to substances being excreted. I have a patch of eczema on my elbow with a VERY clear border. Sulphates have it flaring, make my scalp and facial skin produce excess oil but no obvious reaction anywhere else. Allergies are different, you are more likely to have a diffuse response. Acne is different again, the face and back can be a mess but nothing elsewhere. This is why dermatology is a specialism in itself.
Such a sudden change is more likely to be the fact that you removed the old diet than the fact that you adding in the new diet. I was suggesting dehydration might have contributed to the water infection not to the diarrhoea. Diarrhoea affects the gut flora well after the obvious symptoms are over, that is often how IBS starts. Diarrhoea also affects hydration levels well after the symptoms are resolved, 3g of water are stored in the muscles alongside every 1g glycogen. Fail to absorb energy from food and glycogen will be depleted, this is why 'detox' and crash diets produce large amounts of weight loss.
Whilst it is your dog and I don't pretend to be a vet I do know a fair bit about healthcare, having worked in and studied it for two decades. External symptoms are only small part of the story, vets use signs and tests to get the full picture. I won't waste your time by posting again, you would be best to ask your vet if you are going to discount everything posters suggest.Declutterbug-in-progress.⭐️⭐️⭐️ ⭐️⭐️0 -
I won't waste your time by posting again, you would be best to ask your vet if you are going to discount everything posters suggest.
Wow. What crawled up your arse this morning?
I have tried to answer your questions, I did state from the off that I was leaving this to my vet so please understand I'm not going to start implementing treatment from someone I don't know on the internet.
I was merely questioning if anyone else had experienced this. I didn't expect to be lectured in dog nutrition, whilst its all incredibly interesting I'd prefer my vet to offer the results of the skin scrapings he has taken and tailor treatment to suit the condition.0 -
pulliptears wrote: »Wow. What crawled up your arris this morning?
I have tried to answer your questions, I did state from the off that I was leaving this to my vet so please understand I'm not going to start implementing treatment from someone I don't know on the internet.
I was merely questioning if anyone else had experienced this. I didn't expect to be lectured in dog nutrition, whilst its all incredibly interesting I'd prefer my vet to offer the results of the skin scrapings he has taken and tailor treatment to suit the condition.
Then why apply a product tailored to human skin conditions? Or was this recommended by the vet and you didn't bother to say in the OP? This board is for practical advice not timewasting, nobody has suggested you start any kind of treatment behind your vet's back. Nutrition is inextricably linked to skin health, whether you believe the moon is made of green cheese or not.Declutterbug-in-progress.⭐️⭐️⭐️ ⭐️⭐️0 -
Then why apply a product tailored to human skin conditions? Or was this recommended by the vet and you didn't bother to say in the OP? This board is for practical advice not timewasting, nobody has suggested you start any kind of treatment behind your vet's back. Nutrition is inextricably linked to skin health, whether you believe the moon is made of green cheese or not.
I've looked through your past posts, you come across as a rude condescending know it all to be honest and not someone who I particularly need to justify or defend my actions to.
This board and its uses are not for you to say, unless I missed the point where you became the moral guardian of the pet care forum.
I shan't be responding to you patronism any further so please don't bother wasting your efforts.0
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