Can ouo go to prison more than once for non-payment of CSA?

Hopeless123

carlcumbria wrote: »

I'm assuming your son and his ex weren't married, however I think modern laws automatically give Parental Resposibility to non-resident parents, whereas when I took my ex to court I had to be granted it in court. This at least will give him rights to things such as school reports etc although I'm going to take a stab in the dark that the child's too young for school right now, is that correct?

Correct on first count, they were not married. The child starts school in Sept and at least he knows which school now (he wasn't told which pre-school he was moved to).

carlcumbria wrote: »

Get your son to make payments ONLY to the CSA

The CSA are being total sh**heads tho, firstly they have worked out what he should pay on the basis he does not have his son, whereas before she suddenly cut off access, he used to have him 4 or 5 days a fortnight. If you enter the details on their website, it comes out that he should be paying at least £100 less than they are taking.

carlcumbria wrote: »

You've simply got to assume she'll do everything she can to make life as bad as possible for him access-wise.

Yup, we've realised that :-(

carlcumbria wrote: »

My advice for now is to ask him if it came to it would be be willing to jail her?

No he wouldn't, it's not fair on his son, it's not his fault.

carlcumbria wrote: »

My ex once told the Cafcass officer...

Same again - son, is that you? lol
Even her own solicitor stopped believing her (or her mother, who is just as bad, if not worse). Son has various evidence and sworn statements disputing all she's claimed, including police reports.

carlcumbria wrote: »

Things will turn out well for your son and his kid, I certainly hope it does. All the best, Carl

Thank you, sorry this became about our problems rather than sorting out yours:-)

If commonsense prevails, he will eventually get joint custody (as a minimum), but it feels a bit hopeless at the mo.

kelloggs36

regprentice wrote: »

Apologies in advance if this is a stupid question - many very knowledgable people on this board have been quite technical and i may not have grasped points being made.

If the OP does not pay his arrears, goes to prision, then when he finishes his sentence his arrears are still outstanding. He cannot go to prision again for that arrears notice but can go to prision for further 'new' arrears.

How does the OP stop the CSA allocating any repayments in future to the old debt?

For example if he owes £10k, goes to prision and then begins to repay the CSA from that point onwards then they will use these repayments to pay off the £10K before any further accrued 'debt'.

So the OP may consider his 'new' repayments to be chipping away at his 'new' post-prision debt only, but the CSA repay the older debt first, and then when this issue comes up again the threat of prision will be for the 'new' debt which the OP accrued after prision but which his repayments were not used to clear until the original £10K had been cleared?

Is this perhaps where this will go wrong?

Normally any money is taken from the current assessment first, and any extra comes off arrears.

carlcumbria

Hopeless123 wrote: »

Correct on first count, they were not married. The child starts school in Sept and at least he knows which school now (he wasn't told which pre-school he was moved to).

I had to get one through the courts, whereas I'm sure its automatic now but when faced with the same problem I got a copy of the Parental Responsibility Order and had to forward it to the schools I though she'd put him in before they'd give me a Yes/ No answer, you'd have though they'd have said no without it giving you the process of elimination, but nope, they made me send it to them before saying No!

The CSA are being total sh**heads tho, firstly they have worked out what he should pay on the basis he does not have his son, whereas before she suddenly cut off access, he used to have him 4 or 5 days a fortnight. If you enter the details on their website, it comes out that he should be paying at least £100 less than they are taking.



Yup, we've realised that :-(


No he wouldn't, it's not fair on his son, it's not his fault.

What a sh*t day that will be if it comes to it, deciding NOT to see your own child, but I can see why he'd do it, I had to make that choice too.
Just let him bluff it all the way and not drop it until the VERY day she is being forwarded/ up for commital, it can be dropped at any time.

Same again - son, is that you? lol
Even her own solicitor stopped believing her (or her mother, who is just as bad, if not worse). Son has various evidence and sworn statements disputing all she's claimed, including police reports.

Nope, it's still me, lol. Her solicitors dropped her three times, so she obviously had to change, making it drag on even longer with more delays when she did. They did this for her not corresponsing to either my solicitors, the CAFCASS/ Court Welfare Office or even her own solicitors


Thank you, sorry this became about our problems rather than sorting out yours:-)

Don't worry at all, unfortauntely you'll find over time this situation is all too common. Most courts hold certain days of the month as "family" cases days and you'll find out chatting to other dads it's more common than you think.

If commonsense prevails, he will eventually get joint custody (as a minimum), but it feels a bit hopeless at the mo.

He will get some access assuming she does as the courts tell her too, it's just a matter of time. If he hasn't seen the child for a little while just mind on she could make your son have to be monitored at a contact centre (generally a school/ nursey etc) for a while before being able to take him home instead for weekends. They'll no doubt want to pop round to his house to make sure that he has beddign etc too, but they are on your sons side and are a pleasure to deal with generally.

carlcumbria

kelloggs36 wrote: »

Normally any money is taken from the current assessment first, and any extra comes off arrears.

Assuming I got sent to prison, then came out and paid money to the CSA insisting that it be taken off the "new" debt, even if they took it off the old one and then took me to court for a new liability order I'd be able to get it knocked on the head as it's the same as being took to court for the same thing twice? Afterall they'd be the ones deciding to take it off the old arrears whereas I'd stated it was to come off the new debts?

I'm waiting to get them to write back to me once reassessed to get them to confirm they were wrong ion the liability orders amount and get it canceled in court as mentioned by Roy

Roy_G_Biv wrote: »

If there is a very minor irregularity in the assessment, and very few people know this. You can ask the magistrate to quash the liability and dismiss the CSAs comittal application. I did it in just a few minutes and it wrote off the entire liability. Its still there on the CSA's books, but its now unenforceable and liability can be disregarded. Not even a DEO or bank arrestment will work now.

and... and especially look for signs a case worker has falsified your circumstances (Section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006).

And also;

If you suspect the CSA is holding back different liabilities with intent to make multiple applications for committal to prison, then ask the district Judge for a "finding of fact" the CSA is frivolous and vexatious. The CSA is planning to make repeated committal applications against the same defendant.

If you are awarded a finding of fact, then you can use it to dismiss future applications in the magistrates court and apply for defendants costs orders for each application

That's my assumption anyway. What do you folks all think?

I've got a lot of proof that they've got the liability order wrong massively, I spoke to them today and they said they didn't take into account the fact I have 2 other kis untiol 2006, even though the middle boy moved in in 2001 and my youngest son was born in 2002...and the CSA are a department of DWP.

I do apologise for going on a bit and asking so many questions, it's clearly not something that's straight forward but you guys are definitely giving me food for thought, thanks again all, Carl.

PreludeForTimeFeelers

Hopeless123 wrote: »

The CSA are being total sh**heads tho, firstly they have worked out what he should pay on the basis he does not have his son, whereas before she suddenly cut off access, he used to have him 4 or 5 days a fortnight. If you enter the details on their website, it comes out that he should be paying at least £100 less than they are taking.

When it comes to shared care the CSA look at the current situation. It sounds like it is clear here that there isn't currently any shared care. Whether that's down to the PWC blocking access or not is irrelevant, if there is no shared care then the CSA can't give an allowance for shared care.

problemcashback

Roy_G_Biv wrote: »

OP, if you lived in France, you would have no child maimntenance liability. Your post indicates the other parent is a single parent of choice and therefore cannot claim maintenance from you. The other parent has the burden of proof that you have abandoned your responsibilities as a parent.

Came into force last year to harmonise with benefit claimants.

had to have a look at this thread, after seeing it on the first page. If its your child you should pay regardless of where you live. why shouldnt you pay what has the world come to when muppets wont pay for the kids they have regardless of what happened. Pay up and stop making us tax payers pay for your children.

Have not read the whole thread got to this quote and was so angry!!

carlcumbria

problemcashback wrote: »

had to have a look at this thread, after seeing it on the first page. If its your child you should pay regardless of where you live. why shouldnt you pay what has the world come to when muppets wont pay for the kids they have regardless of what happened. Pay up and stop making us tax payers pay for your children.

Have not read the whole thread got to this quote and was so angry!!

If you pay CSA you tend to be working, therefor also paying taxes too, so we all contribute to the pot, even purchases such as vat and taxed items go in there even if you don't work. Court systems aren't free either my friend so you'll find if you have no access and take it to court, that money comes from somewhere, although where from I''ll admit I'm not too sure, but I don't think the magistrates, judges, cleaners and security staff work for free!
If there was some system in place that made mothers let fathers see their kids where they should, more rapidly too, I'm certain that the amount of men not paying would be lower, in fact it would be interesting to see how many men don't pay when they don't get to see their kids in comparison that don't pay yet still see their children.

Not seeing your child for no reason whatsoever tends also to make people angry also, moreso than reading a thread on a website I hazard to guess! I'm assuming you either don't have any children or that you get to see your kids?

Don't get me wrong, being on the other side of the fence I'd no doubt wholeheartedly agree with you, but experience has made me slightly bitter to say the least.

Hopeless123

PreludeForTimeFeelers wrote: »

When it comes to shared care the CSA look at the current situation. It sounds like it is clear here that there isn't currently any shared care. Whether that's down to the PWC blocking access or not is irrelevant, if there is no shared care then the CSA can't give an allowance for shared care.

Thanks, yes we realised that, the amount is still a long way over even if he did not have any shared care. The CSA are very unclear as to why this is, with one person saying one thing and another something different. There was a stage when the mother stopped the access and 'disappeared' for a couple of weeks, when she told the CSA that the father had no interest in seeing his son since leaving the home a year earlier. We think they have believed that and are taking back payments, but they will not give their working out on paper. He has been paying maintenance regularly long before she contacted the CSA.

DuckEggGingham

Carl you seem a really good person and obviously care about your children. Please keep us informed as to how you get on.

I would like to just say though that I think you should never give up trying to make contact with your son. He may not say it, show it or tell it but he will want you to keep trying! He is a teenager and hates the world right now and especially you given what seems to of been fed to him over the years but don't ever, ever give up on him. In his mind when you decided "for the best" to stop trying to force contact, that was the day you stopped caring. You have 2 other boys now and don't need him etc. One day he will shout at you "you never tried hard enough..." Reading here, its obvious you have tried so, so hard but he will not see it that way. Never give up.

I know this because I was in the same position as your son.

Good luck with everything.

carlcumbria

DuckEggGingham wrote: »

I would like to just say though that I think you should never give up trying to make contact with your son. He may not say it, show it or tell it but he will want you to keep trying! He is a teenager and hates the world right now and especially you given what seems to of been fed to him over the years but don't ever, ever give up on him. In his mind when you decided "for the best" to stop trying to force contact, that was the day you stopped caring. You have 2 other boys now and don't need him etc. One day he will shout at you "you never tried hard enough..." Reading here, its obvious you have tried so, so hard but he will not see it that way. Never give up.

I know this because I was in the same position as your son.

Good luck with everything.

Thankyou for the nice comments and positive suggestions. Whenever I've seen him in the street etc I've tried to make conversation with him but he literally just blanks me..imagine I'm literally not even there. Whatever it was that she's said to him must have had its desired effect!
He stopped coming round a few weeks before his birthday, which is only a few weeks before Christmas, and he didn't even come round for either of his presents when he could have literally just took and gone, which might give you an idea of how determined he is not to have any contact with us/ me. If I only knew why it would at least give me an idea of how to approach the subject, but as it is I literally either get given the universally accepted sign for "!!!!!!" from him as I drive by (which I must admit did make me have a little chuckle) or no eye contact whatsoever.

Did you eventually make contact with your father, and if so at what age and what made it happen?

Thanks again, Carl