Can ouo go to prison more than once for non-payment of CSA?

carlcumbria

Kimitatsu wrote: »

So technically you can be sent back to prison again and again, it will just be for further arrears, does that make sense now?

It does but it also makes me ask this question; If I went down for the money owed now, but then on release paid as I should do for all debts made after the liabilty order would I be OK to ignore the previous moneies owed?

Kimitatsu wrote: »

Bear in mind it will trigger a CAFCASS case review, which will make recommendations to the court based on how your son looks at things as well, but the courts actively encourage parental involvement even if only by letter to begin with. Being a teenager then be prepared for lots of acrimony but stick with it and you will get to the bottom of what his mother actually said and then you can begin to repair some of the damage and start your relationship again.

Dont let the CSA send you to prison, go and see the CAB and get them to put together a full financial statement explaining what you really can afford to pay and allow the court to rule on that - they are far more lenient if they see that you are addressing the issue.

Good luck

Your reply has been very helpful, however I've decided to not continue the court case at all now, it's pointless from everyone's point of view. It would only lead to upsetting my other 2 kids at home and no doubt dashing the youngest ones expectations, he adores his older brother but the eldest ignores him also when he bumps into him even though the youngest at 9 (just turned) is as friendly to him as can be, my ex has poisoned him that much.
Ultimately if it went to court at some point cafcass would ask him if he wanted to see me and his answer would simply be no, from there at his age of 14 they'd be highly unlikely to do anything recommendation-wise to the court I reckon, and even if they did by the time it got there he'd be probably 16 or so making it even less likely.
My ex simplly refused to go to the courts when summoned or be served with notices from my solicitor etc, and that dragged it on for sooooo long. She did go when it was really important, ie she was going to get punished for NOT turning up, but pretty much avodied it where she could. I went from Magistates courts initially, to going to Crown court with a district judge and then eventually we had to take it as far a circuit judge (they are above them and wear the robes and funny wigs etc) before she would do as she was ordered, ie let me see him. Even then when he came as ordered by the courts whatever she'd said before handover would make him deeply upset for a good 12 hours or so before he'd be really happy and saying he didn't want to go hoime and getting upset.

I won every court case, if that's what you can call it, and still got pretty much nowhere, and skint too.
Looking back with hindsight if I knew then what I know now I'd have let her be committed to prison the first time round when he was 2.5yr old, just at that time I thought it was best for his little young mind not to have to deal with the crap that went on at handover etc and also it would have gave her ammuntion to fire at me when he was older.."your cruel horrible daddy got mummy sent to prison" etc. So decided at that stage it was best for him not to persue it further and jail her.

I wonder now how it would have turned out but ultimately it is what it is. The cases simply take too long to get dealt with at court if the mothers don't turn up etc.

I'm hoping at some point when he's a little older he may come round to see us again, but I'm not too hopeful, afterall he's 14 now and I think most kids kinda know there own mind at that age, but then again I don't know what it is that's she's been saying to him all these years too. He's a good kid, I miss like crazy, and the worst thing is he's only a matter of streets away and we can't talk! Less than half a mile...nuts!

Cafcass were heavily involved in both "sets" of court cases, even going as far having to go into his school with a few photo's (and the police to make sure she didn't come down and remove him from school) to interview him when he was around 5yr old, as she wouldn't go to see them or let them go to her house. Before then they were called the Court Welfare Office. Got to say both their representetives that I dealt with were incredibly good and stood by my all the way in court etc, and without them I'd have simply not got to see him for the brief times we did. Without them saying it in as many words you could tell there hands were tied a lot. They were lovely ladies, unlike her unfortunately.

Anyway, thanks again for the quite in-depth reply, hopefully you can answer my other little question above too regarding debts since the liability order.

Carl

carlcumbria

It does but it also makes me ask this question; If I went down for the money owed now, but then on release paid as I should do for all debts made after the liabilty order would I be OK to ignore the previous moneies owed?

Sorry, meant to include the question separately but included it in your quote instead.

Roy_G_Biv

carlcumbria wrote: »

Can ouo go to prison more than once for non-payment of CSA?

I'm really after a solid yes/ no and answer not a guessing session.

Straight answer is NO.

Not for the same liability order.

You do not get anything on your CRB for being committed to prison. CRB is for criminal records.

carlcumbria wrote: »

Hello all,
I'm trying to find out if it's possible for the magistrates to send you to prison more than once for non-payment of CSA. I know it's not possible for normal crimes etc but don't know if non-payment of CSA falls into the same bracket.

Different rules, but no, you cannot be committed twice for the same liability order.

carlcumbria wrote: »

I've already been given a suspended sentence of 42 days and to be honest I'm considering just going down just to get it over and done with, as far as I'm aware I'll only have to serve a half sentence with good behaviour so I'd be back home in 3 weeks..which right now looks better than dealing with all the CSA crap hanging over me for the next god-knows how many years.
Thanks for any help you can give folks, but to be honest I'm really after a solid yes/ no and answer not a guessing session.
Thanks, Carl

I wasnt aware it can be a suspended sentence and there is no provision in CS regulations for a magistrate to suspend a committal to prison order. You will probably get a district judge sitting as a magistrate,

You can turn this into a money trail. If you are committed the you get automatic benefits on release, you get top of the housing list (apply via HM prison service when you get your introduction with the prison governor) and become rehoused under a local authority of your choice. You also get housing and council tax benefits as well. You get everything single mums get.

Remember the liability will still be due when you complete your sentence, but you can roll that over for perpetuity and remain on benfits until the CSA learn to behave or for as long as work does not pay.

If there is a very minor irregularity in the assessment, and very few people know this. You can ask the magistrate to quash the liability and dismiss the CSAs comittal application. I did it in just a few minutes and it wrote off the entire liability. Its still there on the CSA's books, but its now unenforceable and liability can be disregarded. Not even a DEO or bank arrestment will work now.

You have nothing to lose in challenging it in front of the magistrate. Get someone to look over your case, and especially look for signs a case worker has falsified your circumstances (Section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006) and keep your speech before the magistrate short and sweet. Look smart and never talk over the magistrate. If you get a distrct judge, he will be very open to reason, and he will even advocate for you even is that means tearing into an over-zealous Court Presenting Officer.

It will be your day in court, so make it good one. NEVER give up. If you win, ask for what is called a "defendants costs order". Its not much, the CSA pays a token £250 or so but it opens the door for a civil claim, expensive so you might need media help of make a good application to CLS for public funding.

Roy_G_Biv

Kimitatsu wrote: »

From that point onwards further arrears will build up so you can be taken to court for those

Further arrears cannot accrue while in prison. Prisoners have no income to assess for child maintenance. NRPs cannot be deemed as depriving himself of income because it was the CSAs choice to commit to prison.

He can claim JSA and that will intrroduce a change of circumstances and stops any new arrears dead in it tracks.

Roy_G_Biv

Kimitatsu wrote: »

To get to a suspended sentance then you must have been ignoring this for some time, so rather than getting a prison record which will show up on CRB's forever even when it is spent, how about seeing if anyone on this board can help?

This is not a sentence, its a committal to prison.

It does not appear on the NRP's CRB. that is for recording certain criminal offences.

NRPs cannot be charged a as suspect for non payment of child support, nor can he be tried or convicted.

tattycath

DUTR wrote: »

I sort of admire the OP for showing they are not scared of the sanctions, it has to be costing the state much more to recover any contribution from them than whatever the contribution may be, it does not sound like they are having any sort of contact or parental involvment other than 'we want some money!'

I thought the same as DUTR - he wouldn't be asking the question if everything was hunky dory and he was seeing his child would he.

Mrs_justjohn wrote: »

A rather sweeping statement....so all single mums that are chasing child support have denied access?? I don't think so

that isn't what he said, that's the bit you added-now who's assuming?

Mrs_justjohn wrote: »

What bit did I add??

I read your post assuming you were stating that most people chasing CS were witholding/denying access rights.

I've edited your comment in bold - to clarify. Please note It was common sense to read the OP as being denied access for one reason or an other. To assume that DUTR was referring to all cases was ill thought out-no evidence to support it in what was written or implied.

Hope you get it sorted OP

Roy_G_Biv

carlcumbria wrote: »

It does but it also makes me ask this question; If I went down for the money owed now, but then on release paid as I should do for all debts made after the liabilty order would I be OK to ignore the previous moneies owed?

Sorry, meant to include the question separately but included it in your quote instead.

If you suspect the CSA is holding back different liabilities with intent to make multiple applications for committal to prison, then ask the district Judge for a "finding of fact" the CSA is frivolous and vexatious. The CSA is planning to make repeated committal applications against the same defendant.

If you are awarded a finding of fact, then you can use it to dismiss future applications in the magistrates court and apply for defendants costs orders for each application.

carlcumbria

Roy_G_Biv wrote: »

Straight answer is NO.

Not for the same liability order.

Different rules, but no, you cannot be committed twice for the same liability order.

I wasnt aware it can be a suspended sentence and there is no provision in CS regulations for a magistrate to suspend a committal to prison order. You will probably get a district judge sitting as a magistrate,

You can turn this into a money trail. If you are committed the you get automatic benefits on release, you get top of the housing list (apply via HM prison service when you get your introduction with the prison governor) and become rehoused under a local authority of your choice. You also get housing and council tax benefits as well. You get everything single mums get.

Remember the liability will still be due when you complete your sentence, but you can roll that over for perpetuity and remain on benfits until the CSA learn to behave or for as long as work does not pay.

If there is a very minor irregularity in the assessment, and very few people know this. You can ask the magistrate to quash the liability and dismiss the CSAs comittal application. I did it in just a few minutes and it wrote off the entire liability. Its still there on the CSA's books, but its now unenforceable and liability can be disregarded. Not even a DEO or bank arrestment will work now.

You have nothing to lose in challenging it in front of the magistrate. Get someone to look over your case, and especially look for signs a case worker has falsified your circumstances (Section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006) and keep your speech before the magistrate short and sweet. Look smart and never talk over the magistrate. If you get a distrct judge, he will be very open to reason, and he will even advocate for you even is that means tearing into an over-zealous Court Presenting Officer.

It will be your day in court, so make it good one. NEVER give up. If you win, ask for what is called a "defendants costs order". Its not much, the CSA pays a token £250 or so but it opens the door for a civil claim, expensive so you might need media help of make a good application to CLS for public funding.

Roy G Biv, I could kiss you dude!!

You have no idea how much your replies have perked me up, along with some of the others on here too, both support-wise and solid advice-wise.
You've all certainly gave me things to think about.

I went up in front of magistrates when I received the 42 day suspended sentence, and defended myself. I was told by someone somewhere, can't rememebr where now, that they can't jail you legally if you if you have no legal representation, but it was also in my mind because I thought no-one knows what's gone on like I do never mind some a duty solicitor I've never met before that day!
The CSA's court representetive who was ther eon the day was crap and I pulled her to pieces, in a nice way, of course . She'd lied saying she had a statement from a bailiff who'd been to my house that stated I'd said I'd rather go to prison than pay her money (I actually said I'd rather my left testicle was chopped off) and when she couldn't produce the so called statement, that was kinda disregarded!

Most folks get nervous in court, but I quite enjoy it..I've been there enough with the contact cases to not be bothered by the pomp of it all
Speak nice and keep cool like you say and the rest is eeeeassy, and district Judges are nice people from my experience, very calm logical people who don't take crap. Magistrates however....

I know for sure there's massive irregularities in the liability order, and the CSA seem to know it too. I'm going to get reassessed soon for the past years included in the liabilty order, and assuming they agree I don't owe them what they are saying I will definitely do as you've mentioned and try to get it quashed as a liability order once they admit it on paper..christ, it would be like even they agree with me in the evidence that THEY'VE provided on THEIR paper, haha :T

Thanks to everyone for the replies so far, I know it takes time out of your lives to respond to a stranger, so for that alone thankyou

I've always paid money when I've seen my son (£458 per month at one point!) however when the mother stops contact for no good reason at all, stopping payments seems almost fair to me, even though it does have an affect on the child's money that gets spent on it at it's home, assuming it does, I know mine certainly didn't. It's pretty much the only weapon if you like that the absent father has sometimes.
Before I had kids, as a kid myself growing up, I always thought that they'd be the one thing you'd never lose in life..how wrong I was!
There's many fantastic things in this great country and life is to be appreciated, but contact cases in court aint one of them, there's GOT to be a better way. It's too late for me but what about my sons if they have the same problems in years to come?

Carl.

clearingout

carlcumbria wrote: »

Your reply has been very helpful, however I've decided to not continue the court case at all now, it's pointless from everyone's point of view. It would only lead to upsetting my other 2 kids at home and no doubt dashing the youngest ones expectations, he adores his older brother but the eldest ignores him also when he bumps into him even though the youngest at 9 (just turned) is as friendly to him as can be, my ex has poisoned him that much.Carl

I think that this is a sad story and clearly highlights the deficiencies in the child maintenance and child contact in the UK. Ultimately,the one who has really suffered is the child - and his half siblings. We are at the point where one half of the problem is prepared to go to prison to make a point. Very sad.

I have highlighted the bit above - I am generally supportive of the notion that one parent can turn a child against another. But here we have a classic example of why that might have been possible - serious non payment of maintenance over a prolonged period. You have your reasons - and I respect them to a certain degree - but I am very, very much of the opinion that 'good' parenting entails providing financially for your children in as much as you are able. You are missing this point and it is fundamental in maintaining a relationship with an older child - teenagers are a) very opinionated and believe they know right from wrong and b) very money focused with a 'need' for mobile phones, ipods, laptops and the 'right' trainers on their feet. If you're not contributing then you don't care about him. Mum has all the ammunition she needs.

Sometimes in these situations it takes one of the parties to step back and look at the bigger picture. I have an ex who is probably going to take the non-payment of maintenance as far as a custodial sentence - or at least that is how it feels at the moment - and that's not because I am poisoning the children against him, or indeed, because he's not 'allowed' to see them. It's because he's made a mess, can't see the wood for the trees, has dug in his heels and stuck his head in the sand and no way on earth is he going to do anything which he perceives as beneficial to me. This has included stopping contact with the children. Only people suffering are the children.

Seriously, think about it and see if you can find a way out of this now, whilst you still have a chance.

Kimitatsu

Roy_G_Biv wrote: »

Straight answer is NO.

Not for the same liability order.

You do not get anything on your CRB for being committed to prison. CRB is for criminal records.


Depends on the job appling for though - whilst you are right in the point of law, there are many jobs which also do background checks as part of the vetting process and this WILL come up, the courts and the police databases are closely linked.



You can turn this into a money trail. If you are committed the you get automatic benefits on release, you get top of the housing list (apply via HM prison service when you get your introduction with the prison governor) and become rehoused under a local authority of your choice. You also get housing and council tax benefits as well. You get everything single mums get.

No not for a six week sentance you wont! Housing benefit will be paid for the first 13 weeks whilst you are in custody and then it will be stopped and his partner will have to claim in her own right. He wont go to the top of the housing list because thats what they pay benefit for, and they would want him to disclose the details of the comittal so that it can be assessed by a housing officer to ensure that he was not a risk to any other person.

Remember the liability will still be due when you complete your sentence, but you can roll that over for perpetuity and remain on benfits until the CSA learn to behave or for as long as work does not pay.

Great advice on how to become a good role model for the other children in the family there.

If there is a very minor irregularity in the assessment, and very few people know this. You can ask the magistrate to quash the liability and dismiss the CSAs comittal application. I did it in just a few minutes and it wrote off the entire liability. Its still there on the CSA's books, but its now unenforceable and liability can be disregarded. Not even a DEO or bank arrestment will work now.

You have nothing to lose in challenging it in front of the magistrate. Get someone to look over your case, and especially look for signs a case worker has falsified your circumstances (Section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006) and keep your speech before the magistrate short and sweet. Look smart and never talk over the magistrate. If you get a distrct judge, he will be very open to reason, and he will even advocate for you even is that means tearing into an over-zealous Court Presenting Officer.

It will be your day in court, so make it good one. NEVER give up. If you win, ask for what is called a "defendants costs order". Its not much, the CSA pays a token £250 or so but it opens the door for a civil claim, expensive so you might need media help of make a good application to CLS for public funding.

The last couple of paragraphs I do agree with which is why I suggested that you should find help from other sources.

Roy_G_Biv wrote: »

Further arrears cannot accrue while in prison. Prisoners have no income to assess for child maintenance. NRPs cannot be deemed as depriving himself of income because it was the CSAs choice to commit to prison.

He can claim JSA and that will intrroduce a change of circumstances and stops any new arrears dead in it tracks.

I would love you to explain that then to the CSA and every other financial institution, because in my experience of working in prisons then these things take some time to go through and for the six weeks that he has the possibility not to accrue arrears then it will take them longer than that to do the paperwork! Although he will claim JSA, then tax credits could also be taken into account so he could end up paying more than the flat rate of £5 a week due to the arrears.

Roy_G_Biv wrote: »

This is not a sentence, its a committal to prison.

It does not appear on the NRP's CRB. that is for recording certain criminal offences.

NRPs cannot be charged a as suspect for non payment of child support, nor can he be tried or convicted.

See my note above. Its nice to see you back Roy - have missed you