Solar Panel Guide Discussion

keith_r59

whasup wrote: »

Well, yes. But did you choose not to list the nasty stuff or were you not aware of them? Like lead and cadmium. You might say they're only in small quantities but latest estimates are for nearly a million tonnes of end-of-life PV panels by 2050 which, if not strictly contolled, will result in 1.5 billion Euros of average external costs due to soil and air pollution. That's a quote from a recent (April 2011) European Commission report by the Industrial Ecology Bio Intelligence Unit.

I've not got an issue with PV panels. With more popular use the technology will develop and it could eventually make a positive contribution. But it does irritate me when organisations like the EST - and the sheep-like pro lobby generally - don't tell the whole truth.

PV CYCLE was founded in July 2007 to implement the photovoltaic industry’s commitment to set up a voluntary take back and recycling programme for end-of-life-modules and to take responsibility for PV modules throughout their entire value chain.

PV modules are designed to generate clean, renewable energy for over 25 years. With the first significant installations in the early 1990s, full-scale end-of-life recycling is still another 10-15 years away.

Nevertheless, the PV industry is working to create truly sustainable energy solutions that take into consideration the environmental impacts of all stages of the product life cycle, from raw material sourcing through end-of-life collection and recycling. Although the PV industry is young, leading manufacturers embrace the concept of producer responsibility and have come together to put in place a voluntary, industry-wide take-back and recycling programme. By addressing future recycling needs now, we can offer a truly sustainable energy solution today to help prevent climate change tomorrow.

Through PV Cycle, the photovoltaic industry wants to install an overall waste management and recycling policy which achieves the highest economically feasible and environmentally responsible collection and recycling of PV modules.

You can read more at http://www.pvcycle.org/

orrery

whasup wrote: »

Well, yes. But did you choose not to list the nasty stuff or were you not aware of them? Like lead and cadmium.

These are in low quantities and are no different to the silicon chips used in all electronic kit these days - the solar cells are just a complete wafer of 'silicon chip'.

The difference between normal electronic kit and solar panels is that the panels are easy to split and segregate the different parts - glass, metal, backing sheet, solar cells - making recycling much simpler than normal electronic equipment where segregating the individual parts is very difficult indeed.

cyclechap

I have been watching with interest the lists of daily outputs but I think it is wiser to take a longer term view. My system has been active for exactly 1 year as of yesterday.

I have an unusual tariff in that I get cheap electric (white meter) for three hours each afternoon as well as overnight. This makes it difficult to put a price on the value of free electricity I have used. So I have had to make an estimate of what proportion was generated at what time of day. I have erred on the pessamistic side so as not to unreasonably inflate the figures.

Of course the cash paid out to me is set.

My system is not ideal in that I do not face due south, indeed I am only a degree or two south of due west. On the plus side I live high on a hill (1000ft) and so keep the sun later than people on the distant coast.

Overall the return on my investment over the whole year has been 9.2% and of course this is tax free!

I am thus very happy with the system. When I bought it I never thought about "how long will it take to pay for itself" but I did want a good investment rather than having money lying in a savings account earning 3 to 4% if you are lucky.

If you can afford the system it gives a good return

Elainemary

Sorry to interupt you're great discussion, but can someone PLEASE tell me how to get Homesun off my back? I've already rung them, written to them AND emailed them to leave me alone but they take no notice. I've reached the stage of deleting their emails without even reading them.

orrery

Elainemary wrote: »

Sorry to interupt you're great discussion, but can someone PLEASE tell me how to get Homesun off my back? I've already rung them, written to them AND emailed them to leave me alone but they take no notice. I've reached the stage of deleting their emails without even reading them.

I don't know what email you are using, but you should be able to set up a 'filter' to automatically move the mails to the trash.

In future, never give your email address to anyone other than friends. Subscribe (for free) to:
http://www.e4ward.com/
... which will allow you to create disposable addresses such as:
homesun@....
If they start spamming, just delete the disposable address.

grahamc2003

cyclechap wrote: »

I
Overall the return on my investment over the whole year has been 9.2% and of course this is tax free!

I am thus very happy with the system. When I bought it I never thought about "how long will it take to pay for itself" but I did want a good investment rather than having money lying in a savings account earning 3 to 4% if you are lucky.

If you can afford the system it gives a good return

You can't make a comparison of the return from solar and the return from a bank acxcount - they are chalk and cheese, but often used by salesman to oil the wheels of a sale.

If you do want to analyse your return financially, (and I think it makes no sense to aftre just one year), then you are well down at the moment.

If you start with £15k

then the bank account option has a value of about £15k + 4% interest, so £15500ish

the solar panel option has the current value of the solar panels (estimate £2000 (fair?)) plus the fit of £1500, so £3500ish.

So you are currently well down compared to a bank account if you take into account the asset value. If you look at liquid assets, you have £1500, but the bank account has £15.5k.

The reason is they can't sensibly be compared - both have different pros and cons (and holding cash is a very big pro - ask someone without any).

If things pan out according to promises and guarantees made, then no doubt solar will be a reasonable investment. But there are several risks along the way - the fits are on a government promise (so pretty worthless imv, they could be changed at this, or a future governments, sole discretion with zero comeback), the inverter will need replacing a number of times, the panel guarantees are likely to be worthless in a few years when most companies will have been dissolved and, imv, are likely to be effectively worthless even if not, etc etc. Basically 25 years is a long time for things to go not as planned.

Whether it works out as a better investment than a bank account (which itself is a pretty crap investment!) i'm afraid will only be known in 25 years time.

zeupater

whasup wrote: »

Well, yes. But did you choose not to list the nasty stuff or were you not aware of them? Like lead and cadmium. You might say they're only in small quantities but latest estimates are for nearly a million tonnes of end-of-life PV panels by 2050 which, if not strictly contolled, will result in 1.5 billion Euros of average external costs due to soil and air pollution. That's a quote from a recent (April 2011) European Commission report by the Industrial Ecology Bio Intelligence Unit.

I've not got an issue with PV panels. With more popular use the technology will develop and it could eventually make a positive contribution. But it does irritate me when organisations like the EST - and the sheep-like pro lobby generally - don't tell the whole truth.

Hi

In relative terms the 'nasty' stuff is almost negligable, there's far more in a cheap wristwatch than a host of pv panels.

Regarding lead, considering that pv was originally driven by the 'green' community, a number of the more responsible manufacturers use alternatives to lead, such as lead free solder and the silicon used in the cells is just that, pure silicon, unlike microchips where gallium and arsenic are used. Pure silicon (Si) wafer cell panels (monocrystalline or polycrystalline) must not be confused with GaAs (Gallium arsenide) thin film panels or even the CdTe technology panels which contain the Cadmium you mention.

What needs to be considered is that the 'Industrial Ecology Bio Intelligence Unit' has a vested interest here, research into waste is their 'Raison d'être', so would they be likely to ever say that the waste isn't toxic when the result would be that their future research budget for pv waste & recycling would be flushed straight down the drain ....

Regarding the EST .... I tend to agree. What originally started off as a good idea seems to have lost it's way more than a little .... the information they provide is either poor quality, incomplete or contradictory. I'm starting to wonder whether the entire organisation is fit for purpose and should be disbanded and a more consumer centric successor created in it's place ....

HTH
Z

zeupater

Elainemary wrote: »

Sorry to interupt you're great discussion, but can someone PLEASE tell me how to get Homesun off my back? I've already rung them, written to them AND emailed them to leave me alone but they take no notice. I've reached the stage of deleting their emails without even reading them.

Hi

Send them an email requesting to be taken off their marketing database and everytime they ring demand the same.

Send an email to them (preferably their purchasing director) stating that a reasonable administration charge will be made for each and every marketing call received and that payment would be due in x ... days .... terms and conditions are available on your kitchen noticeboard for inspection etc ....

I used to get the same issue from a certain car manufacturer who had an address error in their database .... they kept changing the marketing preferences, then a few months later more mail ... call, change, more mail .... went on for years until I put this to their purchase director ... discussed T&Cs, charges etc and left it with him ..... not received anything since. Did the same with an insurance company (address error again !) when they took no notice .... same result. In the end it's just a case of talking to the right person and I've found that senior purchasing managers are the best at preventing unnecessary expenditure .

Then there's the ICO .... but don't expect any quick movement from that approach. I'd put it on the Homesun and free pv threads on this forum too as they obviously monitor them :D

HTH
Z

orrery

grahamc2003 wrote: »

You can't make a comparison of the return from solar and the return from a bank acxcount - they are chalk and cheese

I don't see why not, if you can use a spreadsheet.

I've factored in loss of interest on the money, reduction in efficiency of the panels over time and anticipated maintenance and replacement costs. I can vary the assumptions but worst case I still can't force the payback to be longer than 10 years with best case being 7.5 years, with a total return over 25 years estimated to be over £50K. I can't get anywhere near that with a bank account but I can on the stock market, if I'm prepared to lose my money - a serious risk at the moment.

Also - consider that, whilst banks are very low risk they aren't a completely zero risk option at the moment.

zeupater

orrery wrote: »

I don't see why not, if you can use a spreadsheet.

I've factored in loss of interest on the money, reduction in efficiency of the panels over time and anticipated maintenance and replacement costs. I can vary the assumptions but worst case I still can't force the payback to be longer than 10 years with best case being 7.5 years, with a total return over 25 years estimated to be over £50K. I can't get anywhere near that with a bank account but I can on the stock market, if I'm prepared to lose my money - a serious risk at the moment.

Also - consider that, whilst banks are very low risk they aren't a completely zero risk option at the moment.

Hi

I think you'll find that what grahamc2003 was trying to convey is that in real terms (cash in the bank - ie a bank account) after year one you would have value+ in the account, against almost no value (capital loss/writeoff) + savings and FiT income, so on a direct comparison on year one, opting for solar you have made a loss, and this will be the case until the FiT income and savings from the pv system outstrip the initial cost of the system plus any interest you would have received through investing the initial sum ..... then, and only then, will you have the cash back and be able to use it accordingly.

I think that it is very wise to consider all potential pitfalls whenever 'investing' .... and that's just what grahamc2003 is advising ..... interest rates could rise, a bank could fold, the govermnent could withdraw FiTs, all banks might fall, the goverment might not be able to cover the guarantees ... or might change the threshold ... or ... the inverter might fail every five years .. or ... or ... all assumptions for consideration ....

My 'investment' has made a healthy loss so far, but the loss is getting smaller by the day (well, most days ) .... at some time in the future I hope to be in profit and therefore use the same money elsewhere .....

HTH
Z