Solar Panel Guide Discussion

celerity

jgrove wrote: »

For the record i have already fitted my own solar system that is not connected to my house circuits in anyway, it produces power that is stored in a battery and used via an inverter, and or 12v feeds to things like phones laptops etc, this work well but was expensive to fit.

You could help a lot of us out in this forum if you started a new thread, detailing your advice for how those of us with panels can charge batteries during the day to power things like external lighting, pond pumps etc.

Cheers in advance

/\dam

Bingobongo

Come on everyone it's a scam and you know it. It greenwash pure and simple and the only reason that this website has publicised it so heavily is that it falls into the remit of this site which is basically one of how consumers can save money.
But the inconvenient truth regarding this particular topic is that, as has been said before, it steals money from the poor to enrich mainly the middle classes.
Perhaps this site should be renames Moneysavingexpertforthewealthy because that is exactly what is happening.
Rather like the inconvenient truth that there is no such thing as rising damp caused by a supposedly faulty damp course, because Building societies insist on calling in shamen with their dampometers which glow red if there is any trace of dampness it is widely believed that injecting walls with chemicals is the answer.
Hence thousands of supposedly reputable companies now exist to deal with this non problem.
So most fools believe that by buying into this scheme they are, ahem, saving the planet and also "doing their bit".
The thing is they wouldn't be able to do their bit without the disgusting feed-in tariff invented by lobbyists in the eco-industry and duly acted upon by the sheeple in parliament.

celerity

digitaltoast wrote: »

Here's a snippet from George Monbiot's blog:

In the interests of balance, it is only fair for anyone who reads Monbiot's blog as a means to back up their own viewpoint, that they also look at some rebuttals to his arguments. For example: http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/mar/18/solar-energy-feed-in-tariffs-monbiot

Jeremy_Leggett wrote:

Then there is the question of the relative investments in the feed-in regime and other carbon-cutting options, compared to the prize available. If government and business do nothing together to make the UK solar and other tariffs cost-neutral as promised – an unlikely assumption - the tariffs for all technologies will add a few hundred million pounds a year to the nation's electricity bills. Other forms of energy market support will add billions per year to taxpayers bills, with little or no chance of being rendered cost-neutral. Nuclear waste alone will add more than £3bn a year.

This is what I keep trying to get across - subsidies for solar PV sound offensive until you put them in context with national budgets, and scale them out across 25 years.

Once you do that, it really does put the furious clamouring against the FiT in perspective.

/\dam

zeupater

jgrove wrote: »

I have spent most of the day reading articles and forum messages, i am not renting my roof or anything like that, i am simple buying the system out right in order to save money over a period of time on my electricity bill. The power i generate goes to the elec company and they pay me for it. I also use power when i have no sun and i pay them for it, so it must balance itself out. The rate they buy elec from me at as far as i can tell is fixed for 25 years (ish)

Now its clear that this is a massively contentious issue for some folk, but i really cannot see what the problem is for the first 25 years, as a potential buyer i want to know what happens after that.

Now i do know a great deal about the technology, what has been posted here are various reports and other messages that have no real basis other than one persons opinion over another.

As long as the electricity i sell back to the grid generates more income than what i buy in then i cannot see what the problem is?

If i missing the point then please explain,

For the record i have already fitted my own solar system that is not connected to my house circuits in anyway, it produces power that is stored in a battery and used via an inverter, and or 12v feeds to things like phones laptops etc, this work well but was expensive to fit.

Hi

It's hard to say what you'll save without more information ....

Let's say you would have a large 4kWp system which would generate an estimated 3300kWh per year, depending on conditions such as location, orientation, roof angle, shading, panel, inverter etc ..... this will need an unshaded southerly facing roof space of around 40sqm.

Your FiT would pay 3300x£0.433, the assumed 50% (non-metered) export would pay (3300/2)*£0.031 and you would likely save somewhere around 1000kWh*£0.10 in displaced imported electricity value .... total revenue/savings in year one around £1580, if it's an average sunshine year, maybe more, maybe less. For subsequent years the FiT payments are indexed linked, and there will be energy price changes and at some time, possibly somewhere around year 10 on average, you will need to at least replace the inverter .....

When generating during the day, the excess goes to the grid. This is not currently metered, you just get a flat 50% assumed export based on the total generation meter reading ... of course you could pay extra for an export meter, but it's usually not worth it.

At the end of the 25year FiT scheme you will almost definately have an export meter fitted by the DNO as standard and will almost certainly still be able to continue to sell excess generation.

HTH
Z

jgrove_2

celerity wrote: »

You could help a lot of us out in this forum if you started a new thread, detailing your advice for how those of us with panels can charge batteries during the day to power things like external lighting, pond pumps etc.

Cheers in advance

/\dam

Ok now i feel like a numpty!

I am still pretty confused by this FIT thing.

So to sum it up, ignoring the FIT:

1. I get paid less for each kwh i produce and send to the grid, than i actually pay when i want it back? In other words it more to buy back afterwards.?

2. The FIT gives me a fixed income of X regardless if i sell back to the grid or not.?

3. The FIT is there to offset the installation cost and the cost problem in point 1?

I think i need someone to explain how the costings are worked out!

I will post an article on my self fitted solar system in due course, this will take some writing and might not be published quickly. For me my system is green as i use free power from the sun, without it i would have to use power from the grid, the benefit of course is that i can store what i dont use :-)

If you could answer the points above i would be grateful, Thanks

celerity

jgrove wrote: »

1. I get paid less for each kwh i produce and send to the grid, than i actually pay when i want it back? In other words it more to buy back afterwards.?

I'm afraid so .

2. The FIT gives me a fixed income of X regardless if i sell back to the grid or not.?

You get a fixed income for each kWh that you generate, which is interest free and linked to inflation (so it should rise each year).

3. The FIT is there to offset the installation cost and the cost problem in point 1?

Somewhat contentious, but broadly, yes .
Basically, without the FiT, nobody would bother doing this on their house, as the payback period would be 40+ years.
The hope with the FiT is that it will boost demand and reduce the cost of solar PV (in the long term) so that eventually people will pay a fraction of today's prices, won't receive the FiT, but will still be happy with the payback period.

I think i need someone to explain how the costings are worked out!

- Work out the maximum capacity of your roof in kWp (you can use http://www.comparemysolar.co.uk/ to locate your roof and get it to do the calculations for you)
- then work out the approximate kWh you will generate in a year (I think the above link does this for you too)
- multiply this by 44.85p (43.3p FiT and 1.55p for 50% export)
This number will be your annual earnings.

You can then add your potential electricity bill savings, which will depend on how many people are home during the day. If you've read the MSE article, you will see the average savings are £70 per year. Adjust accoring to your circumstances, but many of us on these forums agree that you'll struggle to save much more than £100 per year.

To get more advanced, you'll need a spreadsheet :
- work out the cost of the system, all in,
- work out how much that would earn you in a savings account for the next 25 years.
- work out your projected FiT earnings each year, remembering to reduce system efficiency by approx 0.8% per year (panels get less effective over time), and also remembering to guesstimate the annual FiT increase (I used 3% I think)
- add interest to your cumulative FiT earnings, because you will of course be investing them in a sensible fashion(!)
- add another column for your savings in electricity bills, and guesstimate how the price of electricity will alter this over 25 years.
- probably a few other things I've forgotten.

If you can't be bothered to do all of that, you can take my advice for what it's worth - I reckon my payback period will be approx 11-12 years for a 3.91kWp system. If that is too long in your opinion, solar PV is not for you, even with the FiT!

/\dam

digitaltoast

jgrove wrote: »

Now its clear that this is a massively contentious issue for some folk, but i really cannot see what the problem is for the first 25 years, as a potential buyer i want to know what happens after that.

Actually, it IS during those 25 years you need to be most concerned as a buyer. Have you factored in:
Roof maintenance?
Shading from future trees? The two or so inverters which will need replacing at a current cost of over £1k each?
In fact, any of the things mentioned by MoneySavingTart in this post?

AFTER 25 years? If your panels haven't completely failed, who knows. But I'm pretty sure solar PV as we know it now will be looked back on in the same way as, say, "Albion Market", "Eldorado", or flares.

jgrove wrote: »

Now i do know a great deal about the technology, what has been posted here are various reports and other messages that have no real basis other than one persons opinion over another.

You're slightly contradicting yourself there. A report is a fact.
Over these two threads, hundreds of links to various reports on current and past solar systems have been posted. More examples of facts:

Fact: The most likely winners from this scheme are large companies like Homesun.
Fact: The most likely losers are those in fuel poverty
Fact: The net cost of this scheme is £8.2 *BILLION*
Fact: It hasn't produced the jobs boost that has been suggested
Fact: Germany's experience has been a costly nightmare. We based our FiT on their system.
Fact: Despite Germany's massive subsidies, it hasn't reduced the prices as promised. In fact, the combination of the artificial market and "goldrush" for silicon has actually increased raw material cost.
Fact: Generating electricity via PV at our latitude is one of, if not the most, inefficient and unreliable methods there is.
Fact: Solar PV will not result in one single fossil fired power station being taken offline, and the carbon savings are infinitesimally small.
Fact: Solar PV produces most electricity when it's not needed, and precisely zero when it's most needed.

Feel free to question any of the above if you're unsure, once you've searched the threads here (all the above have been covered at length).

I'd love nothing more than for someone, anyone, to solidly prove any of the above to be wrong. It'd be a first though!

jgrove wrote: »

For the record i have already fitted my own solar system that is not connected to my house circuits in anyway, it produces power that is stored in a battery and used via an inverter, and or 12v feeds to things like phones laptops etc, this work well but was expensive to fit.

I'm genuinely interested in this part.
As a large upfront investment, I'd be interested in your spreadsheet.
What are the system losses? What are the 3-yearly costs of getting the batteries reconditioned? What is your annual kwh usage on that system, and when do you expect payback vs buying electricity at 10p/unit?

celerity

As a counter-argument to "The FiT was a colossal failure in Germany" I submit the following report.
I don't pretend that it is unbiased, but as so few of these reports are, but it is worth a read: http://www.hermannscheer.de/en/images/stories/pdf/WFC_Feed-in_Tariffs_jun07.pdf

A representative sample:

German achievements in figures:

• 214,000 jobs created
• 97 million tonnes of CO2 emissions avoided in 2006 through renewables
• 11.8 % share of total gross electricity consumption from RES in 2006
• 5.3 % share of total primary energy consumption from RE in 2006 €21.6 billion total turnover in 2006 through RE (building and operation)
• €8.7 billion investment per year reduction of around h 5.40 worth of environmental damage per household per month
• All this, at a cost of only around €1.50 per household per month!

Now, I'd like to make it clear I'm not claiming these figures are correct (in fact, I haven't even had time to check them) - the point I am making is that it is by no means an established fact that the solar PV FiT in Germany has been a failure. The report I've posted makes it sound like the best thing since organic bread sliced using a wind turbine, other articles in this thread make it sound like the rest of the world is laughing hysterically at the foolish Germans for wasting all that money.

The truth is almost certainly somewhere between these two extremes, and probably can't be established beyond reasonable doubt for a decade or more anyway.

/\dam

poloplace834

If I take 12000 put it in a 4percent ISA in 25 years i have 32000

If I spend 12000 on a solar system in 25 years I sace 25000

Am I not 7000 worse off?

jgrove_2

digitaltoast wrote: »

I'm genuinely interested in this part.
As a large upfront investment, I'd be interested in your spreadsheet.
What are the system losses? What are the 3-yearly costs of getting the batteries reconditioned? What is your annual kwh usage on that system, and when do you expect payback vs buying electricity at 10p/unit?

Payback costings i never bothered to work out, because it wasn't till i was sure how much power i could get did i think what i could/should use it for. A somewhat strange way of planning i know, i bought a kit of the internet when i got a 20% off voucher, the company messed me about and i ended up with so well branded components. I expanded that so that i could add to the system when needed.

A Canadian survival expert lived off the grid for ages (till his kids got tired of it!) Hi solar system powered everything, BUT he had a shed with banks of batteries in to store the power, and an inverter for the stuff that wouldn't run of 12v.

It can be done, and i believe that if we change the way we use power we can use solar power as an individual, not as a nation.

I also use foldable solar panels that i imported from the USA made by Powerfilm, they were a rip off for the price, but when your in the middle of nowhere or during violent storms which cut the power for days then they were worth it, both of which i have experienced. But i only used them to power a small satellite BGAN terminal and to charge my torch!

I will do my best to put an article together soon and i will post the link in the forum.

Thanks for everyones thoughts on this and the issue seems to be with the FIT. I did some research on how some US states run similar schemes, and the elec companies HAVE to buy the elec you produce at a rate equivalent to what you would pay for it plus extra. There was a major legal case there after one guy filled his field with panels and the elec company refused to buy the power he produced, for which he won by the way!

I'll wait and see how the sales guy on friday answers some of the questions raised today, if you have any other questions you think i should ask then please post them,

Thanks for all the points the thread has proved interesting reading, if not a bit confusing at times.