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Solar Panel Guide Discussion
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this is why I consider the above quoted text to be correct in detail, fact & sentiment and therefore deserves support as opposed to an unnecessary & blinkered 'ad hominem' opposition ...
There really isn't much point in attempting to use logic with those two.
'ad hominem' sums it up.0 -
My FIT rate is 50p+. I can't expand on it yet but it is. Guess that makes Cardews post correct but also incorrect because for the most its less than 50p still.2 kWp SEbE , 2kWp SSW & 2.5kWp NWbW.....in sunny North Derbyshire17.7kWh Givenergy battery added(for the power hungry kids)0
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Hi M
I really think that semantics and previous history are outweighing a logical approach here.
HTH
Z
Evening Zeup.
That may be the very problem - nail on the head. Give an inch 2 days ago and allow a subsidy quote of 50p+ (instead of 46.81p) and he'll only come back a day later with 70p!
Again, I understand the arguments you are making, and the various ways that a figure of 'about' 50p can be calculated, but why not just use the real subsidy. So much easier and more accurate.
[Edit: Sorry, I missed out the indexed link question you posed. Yes I totally agree that in the future the FIT will rise above 50p, but obviously it will always relate to 46.81p in todays money (or two days ago money).]
(hopefully you also see the humour, with which I find this to be a non-issue, but an interesting irrelevance at the same time
)Hi M
PS ... M, the 19 years remaining would reflect a purchase of a property with around a 1year old installation with a reduced FiT tariff so as to compare with a higher rate system installed a year earlier therefore having 23 years remaining .... exact figures or ages were not used, and actually didn't need to be used to illustrate that an early adopter system, being based on 25 years of payments, will both have a longer period yet to run and a higher FiT tariff than one installed today, yesterday, or tomorrow, which will be based on 20 years ....
Z
Not entirely sure I'm following this bit, but to clarify my points (in reverse this time). I openly admitted to not noticing the relevance of the 15p, but in my defence I don't normally worry about your numbers and maths. And the first bit was a tongue in cheek joke about getting to 15p, whilst also admitting that my argument was flawed as the 15.44p rate (rounded down to 15p) hasn't been around long enough for me to sneak (hence the cheeky reference) it past you.
Mart.
PS Know anything about localised short term high voltages (253V+)? M.Mart. Cardiff. 8.72 kWp PV systems (2.12 SSW 4.6 ESE & 2.0 WNW). 20kWh battery storage. Two A2A units for cleaner heating. Two BEV's for cleaner driving.
For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.0 -
HiMartyn1981 wrote: »...
PS Know anything about localised short term high voltages (253V+)? ...
Yes, but never noticed an overvoltage supply problem with the inverter yet ....
We had a localised HV network problem recently which resulted in a supply voltage which I observed as varying between something like 160V and 185V, causing all sorts of havoc in the area for a while, including dropping our generation for a few hours due to out-of-specification grid conditions ... when the issue was fixed the voltage was very high for a while, somewhere around 252V, before being throttled back a little by someone, somewhere. We always experience high(ish) voltages as we're pretty close to a substation (about 1km of overhead cable before transformer then local underground supply), but the line goes way out into the countryside feeding farms and a number of villages & hamlets. Normal voltage here is somewhere in the mid/high 240's depending on time of day.
HTH
Z"We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
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Martyn1981 wrote: »
Know anything about localised short term high voltages (253V+)? M.
I get them fairly regularly, like "Z" I have a "normal supply" of just under 250v,
but my inverter regularly shows voltages higher than this.
I used to try and monitor the inverter to see if I could see a pattern, but lost interest.
I also have a gizmo, with a display the size you get by putting your first finger on the thumb of the other hand. It refreshes through the ether every 10 - 15 minutes. The resulting close histogram, looks like a bell curve on sunny days. Occasional the display has a missing bar, [I had two blanks on Saturday 27apr13] though I cannot say I have ever caught the inverter itself not generating during the hours of daylight [hail stones the size of marbles today so, like neurotic mother, I went and checked that the inverter was still operating OK]
My transformer, which steps down from three to single phase, is up a pole about 100 meters away and my supply goes to me and one other business property on a "TT" utility pole system. I believe myself to be the last property on a supply from the West. The next nearest property about 200 meters to the East is supplied on a totally different (more reliable) circuit. The other two outputs from the transformer, disappear underground, I believe they are used for street lighting; ie no drain on the system during daylight.
Are you having symptoms of over-voltage?0 -
John_Pierpoint wrote: »Are you having symptoms of over-voltage?
Hiya John and Zeup. Yep, started getting symptons yesterday, for the first time I think.
Story is here (with some additional background in the previous post):Martyn1981 wrote: »Hiya Roger, me again, sorry. Just an addendum, as co-incidentally today has turned out to be very interesting.
Firstly, loads of cloudburst spikes around 1pm, and whilst I don't hover over the monitors (honest) I did briefly see 3.6kW ESE + 1.5kW WNW, so a new record of 5.1kW for me.
These readings are from ENViR monitors reading off the TGM's via Optismarts, so very accurate.
Secondly, lots of sudden zero's around the same time coming from the WNW system. Quick check in the loft showed the SE2200 inverter 'warming up' after a shutdown, so a quick nose at the SB2500HF in the downstairs loo, showed a mains voltage fluctuating between 249V and 253V. The magic 253V (230V +10%) overvoltage figure. So it shut itself down.
Our voltage has always been a little high at around 240-244V, but perfectly acceptable. But over the last year (not me guv, honest) I've noticed it creeping up. Currently generating about 3kW and voltage 242V, so all over the place today. Will take a few mental notes this evening, once the evening peak is over.
Doubt this is due to SSEG's, the nearest house to us with PV is about 50 houses away, so Pi/r2, less gardens, roads and several parks, means nobody else within about 500 houses.
Oh well, such is life!
Mart.
I describe it as overvoltage but should have said "out-of-specification grid conditions" as Zeup described. Not sure what the official / acceptable term is.
My SB2500HF and SB1200 inverters kept on going, but the SE2200 shutdown at least 3 times, but maybe more (I'd just walked in the door). The SolarEdge inverter is the newest, and possibly the cleverest of my inverters or I might be making that up completely.
Kept an eye out last night from 7pm onwards, and voltage seemed to be in high 230's. This morning around 7.30am, with total generation of about 100W, it was showing about 244V, and dropped to 238/239V when I put the kettle on.
I'm wondering if the record high cloud-popping spikes and the 253V+ are a co-incidence or not.
I have read that the max (and min) voltage settings can be changed on some inverters, but I'm pretty sure WPD wouldn't want me deliberately trying to go over 253V (or under 216V). Not planning on doing anything, just trying to learn around the issue.
Will keep an eye on voltage today, but it's definitely fluctuating more than 2 years ago, when it was a more 'solid' 242V.
Thanks for any thoughts, advice or musings.
Mart.Mart. Cardiff. 8.72 kWp PV systems (2.12 SSW 4.6 ESE & 2.0 WNW). 20kWh battery storage. Two A2A units for cleaner heating. Two BEV's for cleaner driving.
For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.0 -
It's really a non-issue
Yet you are putting extraordinary time and effort in continually obfuscating over a simple figure being wrong.
Wouldn't it be easier to just admit the figure is wrong?In that respect the 'older' PV installations with their 50p+/kWh subsidy would be more attractive.
My simple question:There you go again, getting even simple facts wrong. Or did you deliberately exaggerate it? Please point out where this amount is true?
Your post (of many now):Hi M
I really think that semantics and previous history are outweighing a logical approach here. As stated before, the post must be considered within context, that being the viewpoint of the purchasers, therefore the following logic would/should apply ...
... would it not be true that the total FiT scheme benefit for an early adopter would currently be 48.46p/kWh ? (ie FiT+Deemed export)
... would it be likely that any potential purchasers' calculation as to what value the pv system would be to them include the total tariff plus an allowance for inflation ?
... would it be correct to say that anyone making a decision to purchase today would likely not complete on the purchase until July/August ?
... would it then be logical to say that roughly 66% (8months) of the first years FiT would be at current rates, with the remaining fraction being at next years ?
... would 50/48.46 not be considered as being 3.1% ?
... would this year's inflation not likely be around or above this figure ?
... would the purchasers' calculation therefore not likely include a figure of 50p+/kWh for each and every whole year that the FiT would apply to their system, with the only exception being the remainder of the current scheme year (prior to April 2014) ?
... would this not mean that on a purchase completed at the end of July which includes a system installed within the peak period of 2011 would still have ~23 years 4months of FiT payments remaining ?
... would this not then resolve to a purchasers calculation based on 8months of income below 50p/kWh followed by 22years 8months at 50p+/kWh ?
Considering the above, and looking at the original point of contention ... Quote ... "Personally I would have thought that a house with an income stream would have had some impact on the price obtained. In that respect the 'older' PV installations with their 50p+/kWh subsidy would be more attractive." ... then which of the following statements would more likely apply ? ....
(a) - The purchasers' calculation will be based on an averaged FiT below 50p/kWh.
... or ...
(b) - The purchasers' calculation will be based on an averaged FiT above 50p/kWh.
Leaving pedants aside, any sane individual would hopefully have arrived at the same conclusion, and if so should be in agreement with the original point being contended. The term 'income stream' is important to the context of the point as it suggests something which is not applicable at a particular time, but something which is dependent on the passage of time, the variable (time) being overlooked by some (as previously raised) .... this is why I consider the above quoted text to be correct in detail, fact & sentiment and therefore deserves support as opposed to an unnecessary & blinkered 'ad hominem' opposition ...
HTH
Z
PS ... M, the 19 years remaining would reflect a purchase of a property with around a 1year old installation with a reduced FiT tariff so as to compare with a higher rate system installed a year earlier therefore having 23 years remaining .... exact figures or ages were not used, and actually didn't need to be used to illustrate that an early adopter system, being based on 25 years of payments, will both have a longer period yet to run and a higher FiT tariff than one installed today, yesterday, or tomorrow, which will be based on 20 years ....
Z
It's clear, like cardew, that you just won't admit when you are wrong.
Wouldn't it be easier to just admit the figure is wrong?0 -
HiYet you are putting extraordinary time and effort in continually obfuscating over a simple figure being wrong.
Wouldn't it be easier to just admit the figure is wrong?
My simple question:
Your post (of many now):
It's clear, like cardew, that you just won't admit when you are wrong.
Wouldn't it be easier to just admit the figure is wrong?
Referencing a previous post ........ One of the most commonly used tactics when defending a pretty weak position is to move the debate to a position where either circular reasoning, an illogical assertion or a pure fallacy is intentionally inserted to become the major point of contention instead of the initial subject of the debate in order to move the discussion to a position which is extremely likely to result in stalemate, not the originally anticipated loss. Most would recognise this as being a 'red-herring' strategy and would normally consider it as being a negative approach to any debate/discussion as it makes no attempt to discover the 'truth' or find 'consensus', just to prevent loosing, which, considering that the original position would likely be considered untenable would be considered as being a personal 'win' ..... for some, it's 'winning' and 'face' that matters more than 'logic' and 'truth' ....
Then, of course, there's the usual 'Ad Hominem' approach (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem) which is used by many as an intentional diversion through inflaming the personal nature of exchanges, usually as a last resort, but for some as a natural position from which to argue ...
... if it's winning that matters then you may consider in your own mind that you have won, as can anyone who also believes that winning and not enlightenment of the mind is the primary objective, it makes no difference at all in my opinion, so chalk up the win, claim the victory & rejoice at the exalted glory of vanity, for those who understand the original post within context, or simply don't actually care, the world will continue to turn and logic & context will be seen as being both logical & contextual.
As for obfuscation ..... I see logic & sense in the op's point of contention and have posted considered, logical, clear & detailed responses with absolutely no intent to hide any meaning within what has been posted .... therefore it seems that 'obfuscate' is a poorly considered & unjustified description to have used.
The pendulum of the mind alternates between sense and nonsense, not between right and wrong, so, as previously stated, I see 'sense' and have posted so, others may post 'wrong', which may cause others to consider as being 'nonsense' .... obfuscation is in the eye of the beholder, as is sense - some educated minds may also see sense yet claim obfuscation, isn't the world of bulletin boards a complex place !
HTH
Z"We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle0 -
Hi
Referencing a previous post ...
... if it's winning that matters then you may consider in your own mind that you have won, as can anyone who also believes that winning and not enlightenment of the mind is the primary objective, it makes no difference at all in my opinion, so chalk up the win, claim the victory & rejoice at the exalted glory of vanity, for those who understand the original post within context, or simply don't actually care, the world will continue to turn and logic & context will be seen as being both logical & contextual.
As for obfuscation ..... I see logic & sense in the op's point of contention and have posted considered, logical, clear & detailed responses with absolutely no intent to hide any meaning within what has been posted .... therefore it seems that 'obfuscate' is a poorly considered & unjustified description to have used.
The pendulum of the mind alternates between sense and nonsense, not between right and wrong, so, as previously stated, I see 'sense' and have posted so, others may post 'wrong', which may cause others to consider as being 'nonsense' .... obfuscation is in the eye of the beholder, as is sense - some educated minds may also see sense yet claim obfuscation, isn't the world of bulletin boards a complex place !
HTH
Z
Stop obfuscating, and just admit the figure is wrong.0 -
HiStop obfuscating, and just admit the figure is wrong.
I am extremely pleased to see that obfuscation when obfuscation is intended has finally been recognised and the term may therefore be used within 'context' in the future. Now, considering that a little progress has been made along the 'learning curve', it may now be a really good time to learn the relevance of the term 'context' itself before moving the debate forwards to it's logical conclusion, that being 'sense' as opposed to 'wrong'.
Anticipating your most intellectual reply as always .... :rotfl:
Z"We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle0
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