think im getting screwed by work.

jiboom

bit of history but ill tryo to keep it short:

been working for a firm for 15 years,but redundancy looms. I started just doing 1 day a week but have always filled in for any shortages so worked anything from 1-7 days a week. they did need me on fridays+ weekend so its accepted i do 2 days a week.

As the job winds up, people are leaving. on one such occasion the manager called me in and asked if i wanted the ex-employee's job. I agreed to this and so have been doing their job since decemeber (6 days a week, 8-3.30),

The first problem came when i asked for my contract to be changed to reflect the increase in hours as i wanted the full holiday allowance. i was still on 2 day contract and was only getting 11 days holiday. This did not happen but eventually my manager said he had informed wages that i worked 6 days and my holiday was adjusted.

Today though he has threatened me when telling me hours are to be cut. I said as long as it's done fairly that would be fine as we knew it's coming but he just said becareful as you are only contracted to 2 days!!

what this suggests to me is that of the 3 people left, they will keep 6 day weeks and i will only go in on the 2 days when one is off.

can they do this? offer me a job but now claim it was only meant as "extra" days of the kind i have been covering for years? this was never suggested,the offer was for me to take the job, but i suppose this turns in to my word v my manager.

the whole situation is crap as we are going to 2 staff instead of 3 so the 2 can still do a 7 hour day instead of 3 having a 6 hour day. so im taking the whole brunt of the cuts! would leave but have a redundancy payment to collect soon but feel they are using this 2 day thing to cut me back so i have no choice but to leave before the redundancy.

the job i took only arose because they forced an 80 year old to take retirement after she been there 13 years just before she was due to get redundancy. Dont let the age fool you, she worked like a trooper doing a 6 day week!

any advice etc would by great. thanks

DCFC79

All i can say is get looking for another job,

SarEl

Oh dear - I think it is worse. Overtime does not count towards redundancy payments so your redundancy pay would be calculated on the basis of your contractual hours of two days per week. I assume you are not in a union - if not you need legal davice now, and I do not mean ACAS or CAB. I mean legal advice. Sorry.

jiboom

i did speak to acas today and they said redundancy would be paid in line with what i earn fin my last week, but good practice would dictate as my hours are dropping they could average it out over 12 weeks. is this correct?

the 2 replies make it sound like im f**ked. what leagal recourse do i have? i can now see how convenient it is for them to give me a full time job but not update my contract!! does them offering me her job and not offering it as extra days good enough for me to have a case? Is changing my holiday allowance an admission by them, as im led to believe if not contracted for these days the "overtime" does not count towards holiday (hence we all work 6 day weeks but only get 5 days for our 4.5 week holiday allowance)?

I

Savvy_Sue

jiboom wrote: »

i can now see how convenient it is for them to give me a full time job but not update my contract!! does them offering me her job and not offering it as extra days good enough for me to have a case? Is changing my holiday allowance an admission by them, as im led to believe if not contracted for these days the "overtime" does not count towards holiday (hence we all work 6 day weeks but only get 5 days for our 4.5 week holiday allowance)?

I'm not an expert, and I'm not entirely sure I follow everything you're saying, but to my simple mind the fact that they have 'told payroll' you're doing 6 days pw, and your holiday pay's been based on a 5 day week, indicates to me that your redundance pay should be so calculated also. In other words, they have not updated your written statement, but they HAVE amended your holiday entitlement, which seems to be a contractual change.

And it is true that 'overtime' doesn't count towards holiday entitlement (usually), BUT equally true that you are only required to have 28 days paid leave, even if you are contracted to work a 6 day week.

KiKi

SarEl - surely this would be one of the times where the new contract is implied to be accepted by the employer and employee, since he's been doing 6 days a week since December? Regardless of the fact that it wasn't written down, surely it's implied?

So changing it back to 2 would be considered a breach of contract, would it not? I appreciate that proving it might be tricky, but this seems to be the opposite of the other thread (where the lady had a 13 hour a week contract but was only being given 2 or 3 hours).

KiKi

SarEl

Possibly - that is why I said I think and why I suggested getting legal advice. Because we all know that ACAS never make mistakes! The averaging out of wages over a period applies to workers whose hours vary from week to week, often due to irregular working patterns - more the sort of 7 days on and 5 days off sort of thing. Equally, technically ACAS are correct in that redundancy is generally calculated on the last wage (so what if they drop the hours to 2 days a week for a week?). And nobody has to abide by "good practice" as we all know. Equally, custom and practice may apply - but the OP has been on a 2 day contract for a lot of time and extra days have been "overtime" as an when throughout that period. OP appears to have little evidence of promises that they were working in another job, or the basis upon which, if they were, that offer was made (like temporary arrangements) - only the original contract for 2 days. This is a lot more complicated than "my contract says 13 hours and they aren't giving me 13 hours", because there are a whole range of possible secenraios which the employer could argue - and possibly quite lawfully. It is very hard to determine from information on a website what the exact nature of the job role is because the OP appears to have had an "irregular" arrangement for work for a very long time. So I wouldn't be comfortable with any advice that wasn't based on full knowldege of the full facts.

jiboom

SarEl wrote: »

Possibly - that is why I said I think and why I suggested getting legal advice. Because we all know that ACAS never make mistakes! The averaging out of wages over a period applies to workers whose hours vary from week to week, often due to irregular working patterns - more the sort of 7 days on and 5 days off sort of thing. Equally, technically ACAS are correct in that redundancy is generally calculated on the last wage (so what if they drop the hours to 2 days a week for a week?). And nobody has to abide by "good practice" as we all know. Equally, custom and practice may apply - but the OP has been on a 2 day contract for a lot of time and extra days have been "overtime" as an when throughout that period. OP appears to have little evidence of promises that they were working in another job, or the basis upon which, if they were, that offer was made (like temporary arrangements) - only the original contract for 2 days. This is a lot more complicated than "my contract says 13 hours and they aren't giving me 13 hours", because there are a whole range of possible secenraios which the employer could argue - and possibly quite lawfully. It is very hard to determine from information on a website what the exact nature of the job role is because the OP appears to have had an "irregular" arrangement for work for a very long time. So I wouldn't be comfortable with any advice that wasn't based on full knowldege of the full facts.

good job i went to work before i saw this post i used some of the replies to fight my corner and it seemed to work.


i went to personnel and quoted a few things i had been told. The implied contract, the offer to take the job was verbally agreed so binding, the company hjas amended my holiday allowance etc. He did not seem to want an argument about this. Apparently the MD has said if my dept can not come to an agreement he will pull the plug early and we (all 3) go.this may be ion my favour.

At the meeting later with my manager and personnel manager it became clear i was a thorn in the side. They had clearly decided the work allocation was to be 6 days for the 2 women and 2 days for me. One of them even butted in to say my contract was 2 days which makes me believe this meeting was just to announce the change not to discuss a fair solution. When i again quoted the stuff above about my contract, personnel told her this was correct so it was 15 days (3x 5 days per week contracted) to fit into 14 days work.

I said i would take a slightly bigger cut by doing 2 week days and both week-end days. This knocks me down from 6 days to 4 but i still get 5 days pay as W/E is x.15. This would leave the other 2 with 5 day weeks and 5.5 days pay. so i lose 2 and they lose 1.5 but as they would supervise they would get a bit more in their pay.

my offer did not go down well so the other 2 were given the W/E to think it over. im now worried they have agreed with me about contract changes just to give them more time to find out where they stand. I have told them i will go legal route if needed which could end the job if the MD carries out his threat so hopefully they will let this go. they still did not give me anything to sign but im now worried to push this point. At the second meeting my manager had a shout at me telling me ive had it easy and was lucky not to have been sacked ages ago. this is total BS as he fought to get me on the company bonus scheme after being denied it for 12 years for my usefulness to the company and he has told me several times he has me down as the last one to go as i am versatile with hours.

im not sure where we go if they refuse my offer to take the biggest cut. It would not surprise me if the women who mentioned my contract being 2 days will try to get them to fight the 5 days so she gets her 6 days back!!

i am classed as a farmer so would it be worth contacting the NFU and maybe joining them so i can get their help? or shall i just lie low and see what happens in next few weeks and try not to push them into forcing me out?

SarEl

I'm gald that arguing your corner seemed to work for you, but I still stand by what I said and you must get some legal advice. There is a huge difference between what "seems to work" in a discussion with an employer and what may work in law - and as you said, you have a feeling that they are simply using this as a respiote to go and get advice on this themselves, which I doubt will be advice sought for your best interests. And, in fact, even more so since you are classed as a farmer or agricultural worker - because there are some oddities that creep into the law from time to time around certain occupations and yours is one of them. I don't know if it is too late to join a union, since most unions won't advise or represent members until they have been a member for a certain amount of time. But I really do think you should get some advice. And given this is an agricultural occuption, make sure that whoever you speak to knows this and knows that there may be variations in the law that apply to you which wouldn't apply to others.

jiboom

SarEl wrote: »

I'm gald that arguing your corner seemed to work for you, but I still stand by what I said and you must get some legal advice. There is a huge difference between what "seems to work" in a discussion with an employer and what may work in law - and as you said, you have a feeling that they are simply using this as a respiote to go and get advice on this themselves, which I doubt will be advice sought for your best interests. And, in fact, even more so since you are classed as a farmer or agricultural worker - because there are some oddities that creep into the law from time to time around certain occupations and yours is one of them. I don't know if it is too late to join a union, since most unions won't advise or represent members until they have been a member for a certain amount of time. But I really do think you should get some advice. And given this is an agricultural occuption, make sure that whoever you speak to knows this and knows that there may be variations in the law that apply to you which wouldn't apply to others.

i will seek further advice but if i get at least 5 days pay as above i will be happy. personnel manager did concede what i said was correct at the meeting and the discussion did turn to finding me 5 days work. Shame meeting was not minuted so i had this concession in writing.

Sambucus_Nigra

jiboom wrote: »

i will seek further advice but if i get at least 5 days pay as above i will be happy. personnel manager did concede what i said was correct at the meeting and the discussion did turn to finding me 5 days work. Shame meeting was not minuted so i had this concession in writing.

Hello HR person. Could you forward the minutes of our meeting to me so that I have them on file. Many Thanks Jiboom.