Cracks in Chimney Breast - What to do?

middlecat

poppysarah wrote: »

He didn't mention the cracks in his report?

Ask him to go back and look again!
(Or find a different surveyor)

I did suggest to the original surveyor who prepared the Homebuyer's report to revisit the site but he insists that the cracks are normal and have already been accounted for in his report.

The report states:

The roof frame is of traditional timber design. The underside is concealed. Some alterations have been made in the form installation of a steel beam to the chimney flues. The lack of access, due to panelling, prevents my determining the purpose of this steel work. There was no evidence of any serious defects in the area.

A friend advised that the paragraph above is very vague and the surveyor will probably be able to argue that the statement "no evidence of any serious defects in the area" is legitimate as he couldn't see behind the panelling (hence no evidence), as opposed to the surveyor seeing the cracks and marking them safe consciously.

The struggle is that I want to avoid spending unnecessary money on additional surveys if they are not absolutely needed. Going by what my surveyor said (again and again), I can call it a day and proceed. Going by what the forum said and my own cautious nature, I should really spend another few hundred pounds to get it checked.

Doozergirl

Has he come back to look at it at all? He just saw the photo and said it was fine? At the very least, it wants re-pointing. I'm trying to work out if someone has already had a go at it in the past. What kind of survey did you pay for?

You can't make him commit to anything because it is something that a structural engineer would have to look at.

Would you want to save the money on his report and later find out that the house is moving apart? You can get one in for verbal advice initially and they will usually just charge for an hour of their time.

I know for a fact that if we were buying, it would be cause for concern and that we'd be looking for the problem that caused it to start off with, and then establish if the problem still exists.

That certainly is not normal, in my opinion. I'd usually expect a raft of 'run for the hills' posts on a thread like this, from people that don't have a clue and I have to try and put a bit of a level on it. It seems the other way around today! I don't suggest running, but I think you'd be mad to proceed without knowing why all of that is there. What is happening on the other side of that wall? Why is the flooring running at a different angle to the beam? If that crack was in the middle of a wall downstairs, would you still be happy?

There's a guy bought a house across the road. We all know it's got big problems. Whatever survey he had didn't divulge the half of it. One entire gable wall was rebuilt several years ago and it's pretty clear to most of us that the other side is falling away too.

middlecat

Doozergirl - no, he hasn't come back at all. I sent him some photos and he said it is fine. I paid for a Homebuyer's report. I guess it's a classic FTB mistake - I thought you only go for a full building survey if the house is dilapidated or has been significantly altered. I didn't think that the property falls into these categories. It was nicely decorated and I genuinely thought that I can move in and start enjoying the place! As a result of the Homebuyer's report, I am now aware that I need to do some work on the roof, external render, damp etc. The cracks are new to me as of my visit last weekend as they were not highlighted in any great detail in the Homebuyer's report. :P

I think I need to add repointing to the list of things to do.

In terms of getting a structural engineer to visit, I think a verbal OK is insufficient right? If the engineer said OK and many years down the road, I find that it is not OK, I would not have any evidence of professional negligence?

middlecat

Suzy_M wrote: »

The rafters appear to be sitting on the brickwork.

The pattern of the cracks and what appears to be a large gap where the horizontal timber meets the rafter makes me wonder if the roof is shifting away from the house.

Possible causes of this could be a botched attic conversion (e.g. purlins removed or otherwise compromised, purlin struts/props removed) or if re-roofed the new materials were heavier than the old and no additional support was used.

If the roof has shifted it could have been easily concealed by the plasterboard on the inside and fascias and soffits outside.

In these circumstance I'd definitely go for a structural engineer - and if there is a problem get the rest of the house checked out just as thoroughly.

SuzyM - thanks, I think I will get it checked.

chris_m

middlecat wrote: »

A friend advised that the paragraph above is very vague and the surveyor will probably be able to argue that the statement "no evidence of any serious defects in the area" is legitimate as he couldn't see behind the panelling (hence no evidence), as opposed to the surveyor seeing the cracks and marking them safe consciously.

The struggle is that I want to avoid spending unnecessary money on additional surveys if they are not absolutely needed. Going by what my surveyor said (again and again), I can call it a day and proceed. Going by what the forum said and my own cautious nature, I should really spend another few hundred pounds to get it checked.

Those reports frequently are vague - just enough info to cover their own backsides, some are little more than "this should be professionally checked", "it would be recommended that a professional inspection is sought", etc. There are usually so many provisos and caveats that they might as well give you a standard checklist of professionals to consult.

In this particular case, provided the rest of the place is OK, you'd only need to get a structural engineer to check out this one part. Bear in mind that a chimney stack can weigh in excess of a tonne and if it falls on you from 30 feet up it is definitely going to hurt

middlecat

chris_m - No, I don't want the chimney to fall on me. Yes, I will get it checked and report back to the forum.

Doozergirl

middlecat wrote: »

In terms of getting a structural engineer to visit, I think a verbal OK is insufficient right? If the engineer said OK and many years down the road, I find that it is not OK, I would not have any evidence of professional negligence?

You were suggesting not even calling one. I was trying to find the compromise. Structural engineers are belts and braces kind of people. If they are remotely worried, they'll suggest further investigation.

When you've spoken to him, I'd seriously consider reporting your surveyor to RICS depending on the outcome.

I've got a full buildings survey moaning about the way two pieces of skirting board have been attached to each other! Surveyors really annoy me sometimes. They either seem to be stating the obvious, covering their backsides and frightening people or completely missing structural flaws.

H is home, I'm going to ask him what he thinks in a minute. He only likes the stuff with pictures.

dopester

chris_m wrote: »

Repointing is the brickwork equivalent of grouting - replacing the surface covering of the existing mortar between the bricks. It's not normally the solution when the bricks themselves have cracked

http://www.flickr.com/photos/64272608@N03/5854083438/in/photostream/

I'm not a building expert by any means, but it looks to me like the main area in that photo has been patch repointed in the past.

And a bit messily too, with mortar smeared onto face of bricks. The lower left hand side of the photo looks to have much neater pointing.

It's my understanding that using cement mixture mortars that are too hard, and not enough lime type mixture mortar used, it can cause bricks to crack and spall. If it was patch repointed to address some underlying problem, well I'd want to know the cause and origin of that problem.

Also when mixtures of reclaimed bricks, soft and hard have been used, that can lead to problems, especially if soft bricks have been used in areas of moisture which they absorb/expand in cold ect.

Doozergirl

Interestingly, H wasn't that bothered by it. He thought it might simply be age if the chimneys are intact below, but you can't call it normal because it needs sorting out. He would renegotiate on the price and rebuild it...

hethmar

What is the condition of the exterior stack? Has it been rebuilt?