Encore, Maia, Apollo, Earthstone etc worktops

Alan_M_2

Shaanbles wrote: »

Thanks Alan - As always good sound advice.

The guy on the phone seemed to know what he was talking about and was very honest when talking about Encore etc which is more than some of the suppliers of Corian have been.

Done some research and "Select Solid Surfaces" also have a sister company "Select Granite Surfaces" based in Leeds - have you come across them?

Not someone I've ever come across.

(don't assume that means they are rubbish - just not someone I've dealt with)

Shaanbles

CKdesigner wrote: »

I would always recommend that if you are having a new kitchen then get the work surface from your kitchen supplier with the fitting also, if you go to the right kitchen specialist you will not be paying over the odds for any part of it and you will have just one point of contact with responsibility for the whole job should anything not go quite right.

Good luck

CK

The supplier I have chosen is DIY-Kitchens who are online and I have fitters lined up - did get several quotes from Independent Kitchen suppliers locally and they were at least double if not 5 times the price.

Obviously this means I have to source the various components myself but then that's what money savings about!! :money:

Have got units, appliances, glass splashbacks deals figured out - just worktops & flooring to go.

Alan_M_2

CKdesigner wrote: »

Hi Alan

I am sorry but I don't agree with everything you have said, you make it sound like every fabricator does a good job. I have seen vastly different qualities of fabrication and to generalise whenever a customer has decided that we are 'too expensive' for their solid worktops and sourced the product elsewhere the job they have had done has always been inferior to the work the fabricators we work with produce.

For instance a year or so ago we did a kitchen and the customer got a cheaper quote from a fabricator online for Silestone worktops. The customer gave me the quote, I passed it on to our fabricator and they couldn't get anywhere near it, bearing in mind that our granite/quartz fabricator is now one of the largest in Europe has more than 40 teams of fitters that all work direct, non as sub contractors and are pretty much the main purchaser of Silestone in the country. The customer was initially pleased with the worktop, I went round to look at the finished kitchen and saw many areas where the fabrication was poor. After around 6 months I got a phone call from the customer, the under mounted sink we had supplied had fallen off! The customer wanted to know what we would do about it. Obviously I explained this was not a fault with the sink, he would need to contact the worktop company as they were the ones that stuck the sink to the work surface.

I absolutely agree with you that a customer needs to see the quality of work a fabricator produces. It is just ridiculous to be spending £3 or £4k with an online company without seeing what they produce first. When spending this kind of money on work surface so much of the value and quality is in the detail.

CK

That's why I say go and look.

I supply some of the largest countertop suppliers in Europe, I know who they are, how they work and what they pay for thier product. Even those that deal trade only.

The cost price of material varies massively.

Many of the fits are only as good as the team that install it, many of whom are freelance and work for more than one firm.

Ultimately what it comes down to is cost, by the time you've employed PWS, Whitehalls, Sheridans, OM&G (if that's what they are called now as they seem to keep liquidating and starting again). Then added their overheads and your margin a £2,500 worktop fit becomes a £5,000.

You get a guarantee sure, but then you're paying twice as much. Most people look at this and think it's worth the shot as if it goes wrong they can pay for the enitre fit again over what they saved.

If the difference is 10% or even 20% it's worth the peace of mind. But it isn't, the difference in cost is vast and in most cases it's for the same product with the same quality of fit.

There's also no guarantee when dealing with kitchen firms, we've had to stop dealing with numerous independents over the years as we simply couldn't be associated with their working practices. They were selling Branded product to customers and buying non branded in to fit instead - that's just not on.

The only real guarantee is visit the fabricator, pick your slabs (even sign the back of them as some of our trade customers do) fabricate, deliver and install.

Try to avoid buying from samples if possible, always insist on viewing the stock that will actually be used for your job. This sorts out the wheat from the chaff.

Alan_M_2

Shaanbles wrote: »

The supplier I have chosen is DIY-Kitchens who are online and I have fitters lined up - did get several quotes from Independent Kitchen suppliers locally and they were at least double if not 5 times the price.

Obviously this means I have to source the various components myself but then that's what money savings about!! :money:

Have got units, appliances, glass splashbacks deals figured out - just worktops & flooring to go.

And fundamentally this is what it comes down to.

My wife is disabled (she has Multiple Sclerosis) and she's getting to a point where we now need to get her a mobility scooter. Walking is terribly diffcult for more than a few paces.

I did the usual online research and came across one company selling brand new scooter direct from the factory (in China I assume) for £1000 a go - damn good value and exactly what we want.

I went into a local mobility shop and asked why their indentical looking scooter were £2500 (same power, same range, same features).

Ah said the salesman, the £1000 is made in China and if it fails then you can't get parts and you'll have no backup.

I pointed out his machine was made in China and if the less expensive one failed (outside the same 12 months guarantee as his machine) then I could buy another new one complete and still be £500 better off.

He admitted it was difficult to argue against that.

Now I'm all for local business and service and backup and guarantees, but when all those add ons double, treble, quadruple the price there comes a point where it's no longer viable.

What people want, particularly in this economic climate, is value for money. It is changing the way a lot of businesses operate.

Shaanbles

Hi Alan

I know you only deal with the Trade; but I recall reading a thread that we (the public!) can come and look at your quartz and then you'd suggest local fabricators - am I right? Can we come visit?

Thanks

Shaanbles

Alan_M_2

I can point you in the right direction for a decent company, but I think I already have via other threads as I've discussed a bit more detail of some of the quotes you've had.

I have to tread a fine line on this forum, I am posting about a business in which I'm involved heavily and the line between helpful impartial advice and blatant advertising can sometimes become very blurred.

Shaanbles

Yes thanks, you have pointed me to local suppliers - and all of them have been very helpful. I've got 4 weeks until the kitchen goes in so still a bit of time to be indecisive!!

ryder72

Alan M - You make some valid points no doubt. However I do not agree with all of them.

- The average buyer has no points of reference to differentiate a good granite fit from a bad one. An unscruplous fabricator could pass off a flaw with the fabrication/installation as 'within limits of tolerance' to a retail customer, something he just cant get away with a trade customer. Going to view the quality of fabrication means nothing to someone who doesn't know what to look out for.
- Come backs for problems that occur in 12-18 month after installation (like the sink coming apart that CK designer mentioned). My fabricator has too much at stake by not sorting out a flaw that might show up. Again an unscruplous fabricator may fob off a retail customer.

I have seen a customer of ours who decided to get his own worktops (from a well known fabricator, may I add) and saw that the granite slabs hadn't been graded and a join was run in to lost a 4mm height difference over 2 cm. Clearly the worktop hadn't been dry fitted in the yard. It looks terrible but the customer is delighted. I wouldn't accept that kind of workmanship and would have the worktops taken out and refabricated and more importantly my fabricator wouldn't even try it with me.

I am sure you would only recommend the better fabricators but most readers here just wouldn't know whats good from bad.

I have asked customers who wanted to buy their own worktops ask me to get my fitters to attend templates. Having a laugh? Our own templates are always attended - its part of the service. Thats where the margin goes.

Alan_M_2

kmdesign wrote: »

Alan M - You make some valid points no doubt. However I do not agree with all of them.

- The average buyer has no points of reference to differentiate a good granite fit from a bad one. An unscruplous fabricator could pass off a flaw with the fabrication/installation as 'within limits of tolerance' to a retail customer, something he just cant get away with a trade customer. Going to view the quality of fabrication means nothing to someone who doesn't know what to look out for.
- Come backs for problems that occur in 12-18 month after installation (like the sink coming apart that CK designer mentioned). My fabricator has too much at stake by not sorting out a flaw that might show up. Again an unscruplous fabricator may fob off a retail customer.

I have seen a customer of ours who decided to get his own worktops (from a well known fabricator, may I add) and saw that the granite slabs hadn't been graded and a join was run in to lost a 4mm height difference over 2 cm. Clearly the worktop hadn't been dry fitted in the yard. It looks terrible but the customer is delighted. I wouldn't accept that kind of workmanship and would have the worktops taken out and refabricated and more importantly my fabricator wouldn't even try it with me.

I am sure you would only recommend the better fabricators but most readers here just wouldn't know whats good from bad.

I have asked customers who wanted to buy their own worktops ask me to get my fitters to attend templates. Having a laugh? Our own templates are always attended - its part of the service. Thats where the margin goes.

Agreed, and ultimately what it comes down to is the price difference.

The end user has to consider if they want to pay more for peace of mind and "insurance" for the backup.

Lets take the customer where the sink fell off. If they saved £200 - £300 then had to pay to get a sink refitted after 18 months it's a false economy.

If they saved £2000 to £3000 then had to pay to have a sink refitted after 18 months it's different situation altogether.

Alan_M_2

kmdesign wrote: »

Sure - but what is that sink was full of water, fell out and soaked the units, perhaps a wood floor and possibly an electrical unit for a boiling/hot water tap? The cost consequences are far worst then.

That's why businesses have liability insurance and housholders have home insurance. I've seen similar failures from well know manufacturers that customers paid through the nose for - it happens occasionally.

kmdesign wrote: »

This is an extreme case, but far too often the real cost of offering knowledgeable advise and providing a service is ignored in interests of getting the cheapest price (note that doesn't mean best price). You are yourself, no doubt aware of a huge number of fabricators up and down the country that offer ridiculously low prices and its almost always for a reason.

I supply many of the huge numbers of fabricators up and down the country, some travel as far as 300 miles to buy stock from us. I can say unequivocally that price has little to do with quality of installation. Some of the best installers who buy from me are amoungst some of the most reasonably priced.

kmdesign wrote: »

On the basis of - 'the cost of fixing it is less than the cost of getting it done properly in the first place' no one should ever buy and pay to buy quality goods. Why buy a Miele washing machine for £1000 when crappy ones are always on offer from the sheds for £200? One can get 5 crappy ones for the price of a Miele and perhaps still be quids in.

This is not a good analogy, as the buyer is not paying any premium for "advice or service" they are buying a brand.

A Bentley does exactly the same a Ford Mondeo, you're paying for a brand and percieved "Quality" not adding value for service or backup.

However, in your analogy the buyer of the 5 "crappy" machines is still better off. They just don't have a glossy brand in thier kitchen though. I guess it depends if you're a brand snob or not really. Plus, one of the crappy machines may in fact turn out to last as long as the big brand machine.

What you're doing is confusing Brands with Quality and Service. Different conversation.

When I vist manufacturers in Shangahi, on my drive from the Airport to the Jiading business district I pass all the factories making all these high quality "European" branded products all stood side by side with the budget brands. Some of them are even made in the same factories.

It amuses me when I see these "superior" brands in the shops for 5 times the price as other brands made in the same building. It is outstanding marketing and an eye opener.