Public sector wellcome to the real world

toshy

cyclonebri1 wrote: »

:T:TGot that bit right then?

Look thisd has all gone the way the op intended in post #1, ie, us against them or vickyverca.

I suggest the topic is closed with a big NAH NAN AN ANNAH NA from all sides, it is deceased, it iS a DEAD PARROT

It's not dead, its sleeping. When it dies we can always nail it's feet to the perch lol!
This needs to be sorted fairly.

2sides2everystory

I do think toshy and even Moby to an extent have made good points from the public sector but I feel you may need 'to be seen to be' separating your arguments from those in the public sector who seem to be creaming it off and then relying on your personal low pay poor conditions stories to justify their fat cat salaries and pensions.

I am confused about which is the UK's biggest union. I thought it was Unite. Maybe I forgot or missed another union merger, did I?

Fact is, union mergers have done nothing for the smaller groups represented by the last two posters unless
(a) it suited the union officers' political to do list
(b) it had the spin off of protecting those further up the tree who do not need protecting with whom the union officers rub shouders far too often. You have to be very active in union matters to even found out when the next union officer election might be where you stand a chance of getting someone different elected. Most of them seem to have a form of democracy which nevertheless seems still to result in an everlasting Politburo Maybe Unison is different?

Your stories of course are at one end of a spectrum and fat cat public servants at the other - people like jackyann the 40 years services to nursing with the half mill pot are in there somewhere too.

That's partly why I think the message the public sector is trying to get across is confused and won't win through. It's just too late. Many of us in the private sector are already in outward wealth appearance a number of steps below the BMW driving probationers you supervise, Moby. Everytime I think of "the public sector" I think of the railings and locks and gates between us. Your railings, locks and gates. It is not good.

I haven't a clue whether the government has got the balance right in their future plans between all your diverse agendas and needs in the public sector behind the railings, let alone in justifying it against the private sector situation the rest of us endure.

I can see that many large groups of low pay public sector workers are suffering, but I have seen much much worse in the private sector. People who earn £800 a month gross if they are lucky on zero hours contracts. And No pensions (don't be silly!).


On another thread a newbie poster joined and reminded us of Bastiat, said by some to be the greatest economist that ever lived ... whether it is true or not I am not qualified to say, but I find the translated words of Bastiat in the link given there by random324 very thought provoking at this time.

Jacey53

The_White_Horse wrote: »

i think, having read this thread, that we can all agree that the public sector workers are greedy grasping filth who have no idea how anything works - having never created anything in their miserable insulated lives. they have no idea what the value of money is. they are the lowest of the low. they should all have a 30% pay cut across the board and be forced to make larger pension contributions into defined contribution pensions. if they don't like it, they can work in the private sector. they would last all of 3 minutes. bunch of mardy jokers.

How stupid you are. It is obvious just from reading a few posts in this thread that "we can't all agree".
Is your contribution to society on a par with your contribution to reasoned debate? do you work for the Daily Mail?

toshy

2sides2everystory wrote: »

I do think toshy and even Moby to an extent have made good points from the public sector but I feel you may need 'to be seen to be' separating your arguments from those in the public sector who seem to be creaming it off and then relying on your personal low pay poor conditions stories to justify their fat cat salaries and pensions.

I am confused about which is the UK's biggest union. I thought it was Unite. Maybe I forgot or missed another union merger, did I?

Fact is, union mergers have done nothing for the smaller groups represented by the last two posters unless
(a) it suited the union officers' political to do list
(b) it had the spin off of protecting those further up the tree who do not need protecting with whom the union officers rub shouders far too often. You have to be very active in union matters to even found out when the next union officer election might be where you stand a chance of getting someone different elected. Most of them seem to have a form of democracy which nevertheless seems still to result in an everlasting Politburo Maybe Unison is different?

Your stories of course are at one end of a spectrum and fat cat public servants at the other - people like jackyann the 40 years services to nursing with the half mill pot are in there somewhere too.

That's partly why I think the message the public sector is trying to get across is confused and won't win through. It's just too late. Many of us in the private sector are already in outward wealth appearance a number of steps below the BMW driving probationers you supervise, Moby. Everytime I think of "the public sector" I think of the railings and locks and gates between us. Your railings, locks and gates. It is not good.

I haven't a clue whether the government has got the balance right in their future plans between all your diverse agendas and needs in the public sector behind the railings, let alone in justifying it against the private sector situation the rest of us endure.

I can see that many large groups of low pay public sector workers are suffering, but I have seen much much worse in the private sector. People who earn £800 a month gross if they are lucky on zero hours contracts. And No pensions (don't be silly!).


On another thread a newbie poster joined and reminded us of Bastiat, said by some to be the greatest economist that ever lived ... whether it is true or not I am not qualified to say, but I find the translated words of Bastiat in the link given there by random324 very thought provoking at this time.

I was told UNISON is the largest public sector union. I very much doubt if we have any fat cats in it, and I also doubt that fat cats would be making any fuss. Most of them are likely to be the top government workers who are the ones who have suggested the changes, I reckon!

atush

toshy wrote: »

I am not a teacher by the way, but one of the many support staff working in schools who do the tasks which the teaching unions negotiated a few years ago as not being the duty of the teacher.
I have an MA, IOSH and NVQ assessor qualifications and I'm classed as middle management, shame the salary does not reflect my ability, but hey ho! it's public sector after all!

If you work in a school, why only 24 days off? you work when the school is closed? For summer and easter, oct /feb half term, xmas?

toshy

"I can see that many large groups of low pay public sector workers are suffering, but I have seen much much worse in the private sector. People who earn £800 a month gross if they are lucky on zero hours contracts. And No pensions (don't be silly!)."
2sides, I don't doubt it! But every-one has a right to defend their position and speak out or act. Those in that situation need to join a Union! Mean-time I don't think those of us who have or who've chosen to take action should face the wrath we have on here! The words "table" and "turned" spring to mind! If the public sector unions succeed in making improvements then the private sector unions can use this as a reference point in future.

toshy

atush wrote: »

If you work in a school, why only 24 days off? you work when the school is closed? For summer and easter, oct /feb half term, xmas?

Yes I do! I'm afraid the equipment used and the room services do not magically repair themselves in the holidays. Nor do all the textbooks suddenly decide to find all their covers and missing pages or all the resources needed by teachers jump out of the printer or laminator and neatly pop themselves into envelopes in sets ready for class use. The plugs on the electrical equipment cannot PAT test themselves and the LEV cannot check it's airflow! The stock levels cannot ammend themselves on the database, and the assets cannot wave at the asset register to say "hello, I'm here" and low stock does not automatically shout to the suppliers and say send me more!
School holidays are busy times for support staff as it is the only time we can do all these things when equipment and services are not in use.

Uglymug

Moby wrote: »

The return of the Daily Fail readership LOL. Are you for real!
'I've given this a great deal of thought' - that's a classic! This Government is doing what its doing not because of foresight but because of its belief in the unfettered market and competition. The very same things that led to this crash!

'I’ve noted that the militant, Union worshiping, wrapped in cotton wool, believe in the Easter Bunny, posters tend to attribute the current financial crisis to the greedy bankers'

Yes!....and remember this! some of us were not taken in by the Thatcher experiment of the 80's. I saw plumbers, builders, electricians etc earning far more than me and the friends I graduated with following their yuppie dream earned money and bonuses I could only dream of because I was working in the public sector. I've worked for 25 years as a Probation Officer in London, my partner has been a Social Worker for the same length of time. We certainly know what the real world is like thank you!. Everyday I deal with some of the worst criminals you could imagine and my wife tries to protect children from abuse.....yet we couldn't afford to raise children ourselves because we live in London on low salaries.....instead we concentrated on paying off our mortgage and topping up our pensions. We can now look forward to a comfortable retirement...health allowing of course! its not our fault other peoples investments went bad!

Everything I earn gets taxed at source. No cash in hand backhanders for me! There is a huge black economy in this country. Many of the people I supervise on probation are driving mercs or BMW's. As for the bankers....I have no problem with the public face of the high street banks but the merchant types are corrupt as hell and have still been receiving bonuses from taxpayers bailout money......and while we are talking about taxpayers money the people that benefit most from tax relief are the high earners! proportionately they gain far more than the average Joe from tax relief. Public service pensions are an easy and undeserved target!

(long post - sorry - my point is made in the last paragraph)

Afraid you’ve got me wrong there, I’ve probably read the Daily Mail once, maybe twice in the last 3 years and I’m absolutely certain I haven’t purchased a copy in the last ten years. I’ve never been to prison, I’ve never abused a child, I don’t drive a merc or BMW (don’t sell drugs), I don’t work for a bank, I’ve never even been offered a cash back hander let alone accepted one and every penny I’ve earned has also been taxed at source. I’m just your average, hard working, non higher rate tax payer trying to make ends meet in the private sector. I drive a 6 year old Mondeo. I feel rather proud that I’ve never ever been unemployed for even a day. I’ve learnt to stand on my own two feet.

I seriously hope that if your doing your picketing at a school that your seeking some advice from your good wife regarding the way these school children are being abused. It’s fine example they’re being shown by their teachers in that if their parents are struggling financially and can’t afford to give them all their pocket money it’s alright to throw fits, scream and have tantrums.

Also, it sounds like you don’t sound very happy in your current job, you really must try and be brave and stand on your own feet and try and move on. In the private sector we’ve all learnt to fight our own battles and if we’re not happy with our current employment, if our terms change for example we try and find new employment. If we’re too useless to find new employment we’ve learnt to grin and bare it and suffer any changes foisted on us. I personally am now in my 5th job. I would never dream of depriving a school child of their education and in effect using them as cannon fodder to achieve this. Also, you say that there’s no benefits to your job, surely if you’re associating with drug dealers you could perhaps strike up a deal to temporarily help when things gets too bad. In the private sector one has learnt to take advantage of such opportunities.
I seriously hope that this government introduces new legalisation soon to combat these Unions, after the twin towers incident in New York we managed to rush through some laws to fight these terrorists. The same should be done now. If for example your pension is based on years service and you go on strike for a day how could anyone that is of a sound mind claim they’ve worked a full year, I think it’s perfectly reasonable in such cases for any one on strike to lose a full years pensionable service. The sooner this law is introduced the better. I need to write to my MP suggesting this.

Now, lets get down to some facts, since you’ve mentioned the Thatcher era I’d like to make you aware about some of the things done by the previous Government, things that didn’t affect you in your cotton wool enclosed public sector world. The one of the first things Brown did was raid my pension and introduced taxation on its income. We didn’t have the luxury that you currently have of it happening only on new contributions it also happened to our existing pot. In case you fail to comprehend the implications of this it was like introducing a 50% tax on your cash ISA and freezing it and not allowing you to take any money out. The same “No more Boom or Bust” chancellor also practically gave our gold away, it had been collected over centuries, it was called a gold reserve for a reason, to be used in hard times, Gold has now gone up 5 fold, it would now have help us greatly in our current crisis.

Many private sector investors (including me) lost money when the Government regulated Equitable Life pension company collapsed. When seeking compensation the labour MP Ruth Kelly stood up in the house of commons and said no compensation is warranted because only rich people invested in these Private Pension. Absolutely scandalous. I’m certainly in no way rich, I’d been contributing for about ten years. This had a Government Guarantee but it was worthless.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t mind paying taxes to pay people working in the public sector, I think the way the disabled are currently being treated is shocking, I’m also against the pension changes being foisted to women in their late 50s. I’m happy to pay my taxes for working teachers, police, nurses and everyone else who, I’m sure, are all doing a grand job.

A public sector worker with forty years pension entitlement could retire at 60, it doesn’t matter if he’s on 60ths or 80ths, by the time you factor in the pension contribution and national insurance he now won’t be paying, the increase in taxation allowance he will get, his state pension, he’ll end up on more than what he was on when working. With the increase in longevity rates he’ll probably on average live till about 90. That’s not a pension, that’s a 30 year holiday on full pay for 40 years service, this is obscene and a scandal, I as a tax payer absolutely refuse to pay it.
　

　
　
　
　
　

atush

Toshy, I am fining it very hard to beleive you work xmas week or are forced to take it as annual leave.

In any case, I used to do some of that work at my son's school for free. Esp repairing books and textbooks, organizing the school library taking stock, reading and I even taught technology. All for free, and no pension in sight.

Old_Slaphead

toshy wrote: »

By the time I retire my personal contribution to the scheme will amount to over £81,900.00. My annual pension when I retire at 65 is currently projected to be £7,200 and I am lucky that as I had paid into the scheme prior to 2008 I will still receive a lump sum of £10,385. So let’s do some maths!!!

Let's do the maths again please.

Would you explain to me, as a member of the teaching support staff (presumably on a lower salary than a teacher ??), how you arrive at a figure of £81900 in contributions over 40odd years.

By my rough calcs - not knowing exact wage figures, I would have reckoned it's much closer to £20,000 and, given that you get £10,000 back tax free, your £7200pa is provided at a minimal cost to yourself.