Cheaper alternative to Hills canine z/d food?

Fire_Fox

rising_from_the_ashes wrote: »

That's what I was getting at.

Molls had a huge number of allergies (as mentioned above) - if she ate or touched anything she was allergic to, she had a range of symptoms from:

Skin - red / irritated / itchy / sore looking - rash - hives - sores - hair loss

Stomach - sickness and / or the runs

Temperament - lethargic to absolutely hyper

Other - in rare instances - fits

These can range in severity depending on the level of allergy to a particular thing but if there has been no reaction at all, he cannot be allergic to the ingredients in it.

As I asked why do you think that feeding Chappie "would've had a detrimental effect ... once it had been fed for a while"? This is going to make me sound totally up my own behind, but do you know how the immune system functions, what an allergy means in terms of 'malfunction'? How systemic inflammation, poor digestive function or nutritional deficiencies can mediate inappropriate responses, and the difference between an allergy and intolerance?

It's pointless to compare your dog's symptoms with another dogs when neither have been diagnosed by anyone with veterinary qualifications nor using scientifically proven techniques. The list you supplied encompasses the vast majority of the substances canines are commonly allergic or intolerant to, anyone with a little Google-fu could have written it. I cannot imagine how you have exposed your dog to each of the substances on the list one by one without exposing her to any other on the list or any other potential allergen.

As you say all that being able to eat Chappie demonstrates is that the dog is unlikely to be allergic to any of the denatured proteins found in Chappie. That does not prove there is no allergy, nor that an allergy is not 'major'. Humans can be allergic to peanuts to the extent of anaphylaxis from traces of peanut on someone's breath yet not known to be allergic to any other substance. It is also possible for true allergies to evolve over time, both improvement and deterioration, depending on which part of the immune system is involved. That is why vaccinations need to be repeated throughout the life course.

rising_from_the_ashes

Which is why I said proper allergy testing by the vet would be the way to go.

Fire_Fox wrote: »

This is going to make me sound totally up my own behind, but do you know how the immune system functions, what an allergy means in terms of 'malfunction'? How systemic inflammation, poor digestive function or nutritional deficiencies can mediate inappropriate responses, and the difference between an allergy and intolerance?

Yes I do - I suffer from 2 known auto-immune diseases (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000249.htm and http://www.arthritis-treatment-and-relief.com/autoimmune-ankylosing-spondylitis.html) and therefore have a pretty good understanding of how the immune system should work and how things can go wrong.

I take medication to try to stop my immune system "working overtime" but this basically stops it working which means I'm at very high risk of catching every cough, cold etc that's going and it takes ages for me to fight them off when I do.

I also have a huge number of allergies and intolerances and understand the difference between the two - with the latter there may be things you can have once in a while with a limited (or small) side effect however if you have that particular thing every day, it is likely it will have a detrimental effect after a prolonged period of time which is why I wrote "once it had been fed for a while".

Fire_Fox wrote: »

The list you supplied encompasses the vast majority of the substances canines are commonly allergic or intolerant to, anyone with a little Google-fu could have written it. I cannot imagine how you have exposed your dog to each of the substances on the list one by one without exposing her to any other on the list or any other potential allergen.

I have come here to try to provide some useful advice to the OP using my own experiences not to be accused of doing a quick google search and going "oh, that's something that can cause allergies in dogs, let's stick that down".

As to how we worked out what created a reaction in Molls - we did a food diary:-

Her initial diet was rice and chicken (nothing else apart from water) which she was on for a period of 3 months and there was no reaction at all. We then introduced one one product for a period, waited to see if there was a reaction or not, removed it from her diet, had a period of chicken and rice again - and then moved on to the next item.

It takes a LONG time, is hard work, often very frustrating and requires an extreme level of dedication as it means that every aspect of food (and liquid) intake has to be very strictly controlled with no deviation from it.

Now, you may feel that that's a bit strong but I am seriously offended by your remarks (and yes, I know that this is the internet and people can say what they like).



OP - I really wish you all the best and hope you can get to the bottom of what upsets your dog and find a suitable diet that doesn't affect him.

Fire_Fox

rising_from_the_ashes wrote: »

You may think I'm bonkers (it has been said before & I take no offense!) - we spoke to a Chinese herbalist shop as they do allergy testing on human hair - about testing our old lab. They'd never done it before but, it worked!

<snip>
I have come here to try to provide some useful advice to the OP using my own experiences not to be accused of doing a quick google search and going "oh, that's something that can cause allergies in dogs, let's stick that down".

Now, you may feel that that's a bit strong but I am seriously offended by your remarks (and yes, I know that this is the internet and people can say what they like).

You are offended by me questioning contradictory and unscientific statements (see below), and offended by what you read into from what I wrote? And you are offended despite saying you would not be offended? Seriously?

Where did I say you Googled that list? The words anyone and could mean anyone and could, not you and did! I could have, your Chinese herbalist could have, your veterinarian could have, the OP could do, no paranoia required, no £40 hair test required.

rising_from_the_ashes wrote: »

I would suspect that if he had a "major allergy" to something then mixing the Chappie in would've had a detrimental affect (which it doesn't appear to) once it'd been fed for a while.

<snip>
I also have a huge number of allergies and intolerances and understand the difference between the two - with the latter there may be things you can have once in a while with a limited (or small) side effect however if you have that particular thing every day, it is likely it will have a detrimental effect after a prolonged period of time which is why I wrote "once it had been fed for a while".

Mr B is wheat intolerant and gets Wainwrights or Skinners Duck & Rice which are both good quality and don't contain the "usual allergen suspects".

This is why I asked whether you know the difference between an allergy and intolerance, and how the immune system functions and malfunctions. If you understood the physiology you would know your suspicion is just that, your suspicion.

rising_from_the_ashes wrote: »

Yes I do - I suffer from 2 known auto-immune diseases and therefore have a pretty good understanding of how the immune system should work and how things can go wrong.

I take medication to try to stop my immune system "working overtime" but this basically stops it working which means I'm at very high risk of catching every cough, cold etc that's going and it takes ages for me to fight them off when I do.

Knowing the symptoms of two auto-immune conditions and the risks associated with the medication required to suppress the inappropriate immune response, does not demonstrate you are familiar the immune system at a physiological level. I have worked in and studied healthcare for twenty years yet my immunology is a tad rusty. I remember enough to challenge your suspicion that successfully consuming a single commercial food proves there is no 'major allergy' to any of the numerous known allergens not found in Chappie.

rising_from_the_ashes wrote: »

Best £40 we ever spent - unfortunately, it turned out she had allergies to a load of things (a while ago now but from memory ncl were red meat, wheat, maize, dairy, various colourings, additives, peas (!), carrots etc etc as well as certain types of grass and pollen, mud etc etc ) so we had to be very careful what she ate and where she went (it was a wash down with a damp cloth whenever she came in after being out).

Molls had a huge number of allergies (as mentioned above) - if she ate or touched anything she was allergic to, she had a range of symptoms from:

<snip>
As to how we worked out what created a reaction in Molls - we did a food diary:-

Her initial diet was rice and chicken (nothing else apart from water) which she was on for a period of 3 months and there was no reaction at all. We then introduced one one product for a period, waited to see if there was a reaction or not, removed it from her diet, had a period of chicken and rice again - and then moved on to the next item.

Introducing one product at a time is not the same as introducing one allergen or ingredient at a time as you intimated by referring to both as 'things'. If that was a typo don't shoot the messenger for questioning the validity of your stated methodology and your inferences. The food diary is a valid diagnostic tool, but it does not back up all of your herbalist's claimed allergen list.

rising_from_the_ashes

Fire_Fox wrote: »

You are offended by me questioning contradictory and unscientific statements (see below), and offended by what you read into from what I wrote? And you are offended despite saying you would not be offended? Seriously?

I said I'd not be offended by you thinking I was bonkers about speaking to a Chinese herbalist - nothing else.

rising_from_the_ashes wrote: »

I have come here to try to provide some useful advice to the OP using my own experiences

When have I claimed to be making "scientific statements"?

I have said all along I was using my own experiences.

Fire_Fox wrote: »

Introducing one product at a time is not the same as introducing one allergen or ingredient at a time as you intimated by referring to both as 'things'.

Forgive me for not using the technically correct term - like many people on here, I'm your "bog standard average human" who is trying to help others from their own experiences.

I don't pretend to be anything other than that and don't obviously know as much as others who may have worked in relevant professions, however, I do feel that most people appreciate the contribution that we make and take it at face value rather than trying to disect every word.


However, this isn't helping the OP at all and I am therefore bowing out of this thread - OP as I said before, good luck.

~Chameleon~

Chappie is one of the best and cheapest hypoallergenic dog foods on the market, and been used by hundreds, if not thousands, of vets for many years!!