MSE bowing down to legal threats

anewman

MSE seem to be removing more and more content these days, and are obviously bowing down to snottily written letters by fake solicitors who have no real intention of bringing a case against MSE or have no genuine case anyway. What happens when MSE do this? Well any company who sees something they do not like on MSE will just send a nasty letter knowing MSE will bow down. MSE even seem to be actively locking threads and removing names and content, where there possibly is no specific legal threat.

Even worse this often seems to relate to scams/swindles where the it is clear from those posting, that the company complaining to MSE, is actually on very shaky legal ground themselves. Often where posts have been removed, Martin himself has been quoted as saying the practices are illegal and those engaging in them are "cowboys". I am thinking particularly of the Parking section. I'd much rather be alerted to illegal practices and scams myself. It's far more in the public interest. Particularly in terms of Money Saving, for which avoiding scams helps a great deal.

In particular, it was always great that MSE ranks highly in Google. Anyone searching for a company name would come across threads posted here, and find info about a scam and avoid it. Now with content being removed this will no longer happen, which is rather disappointing.

I would guess MSE has recently been successfully taken to court over such an issue, or have received some legal advice, for the big turn around? I can understand MSE's legal position that any content on the site is their legal responsibility, even if it is posted by somene else, but flt the need to vent my feelings on the issue.

MSE_Martin

anewman wrote: »

MSE seem to be removing more and more content these days, and are obviously bowing down to snottily written letters by fake solicitors who have no real intention of bringing a case against MSE or have no genuine case anyway. What happens when MSE do this? Well any company who sees something they do not like on MSE will just send a nasty letter knowing MSE will bow down. MSE even seem to be actively locking threads and removing names and content, where there possibly is no specific legal threat.

Even worse this often seems to relate to scams/swindles where the it is clear from those posting, that the company complaining to MSE, is actually on very shaky legal ground themselves. Often where posts have been removed, Martin himself has been quoted as saying the practices are illegal and those engaging in them are "cowboys". I am thinking particularly of the Parking section. I'd much rather be alerted to illegal practices and scams myself. It's far more in the public interest. Particularly in terms of Money Saving, for which avoiding scams helps a great deal.

In particular, it was always great that MSE ranks highly in Google. Anyone searching for a company name would come across threads posted here, and find info about a scam and avoid it. Now with content being removed this will no longer happen, which is rather disappointing.

I would guess MSE has recently been successfully taken to court over such an issue, or have received some legal advice, for the big turn around? I can understand MSE's legal position that any content on the site is their legal responsibility, even if it is posted by somene else, but flt the need to vent my feelings on the issue.

I don't agree with your premise. If anything its the other way round, we have our own in house lawyer these days and are far more robust.

The biggest problem we have though is someone posts about a company we then get a legal letter/legal abuse report - then when we contact the poster to provide more details so we can substantiate it - they either dont reply, say they dont want to get involved, or can't provide info.

In those cases, it is very difficult for us to do anything as often these are small companies we've never heard of - and you're going on one persons view which could just be someone malicious with an axe to grind for other reasons.

Ultimately it falls on me to decide which fights we pick (most things never get to me the team deal with it - I only get involved if its a finite discussion of whether it is in widespread consumer interest to push).

If there are many hundreds of people complaining, many regular posters (rather than a one off poster who has only posted that complaint which is always a little worrying) we will try and fight it and have on man occassions (and are underway with a good number at the moment) risked court action by standing up for our forumites and consumers.

It is a difficult balance but we do our best to fight for consumer rights - yet we're subject to the law like everyone else (and are liable if we get it wrong).

Former_MSE_Forum_Manager

MARMITE wrote: »

so a single person with a complaint about bad customer service is silenced when a company kicks up a fuss? goes against the whole ethos of the little man fighting back against big business that this site is supposed to be about doesn't it

Absolutely incorrect.

The comment remains until someone complains, as with all posts. If the company complains, we investigate and make a decision accordingly. As Martin points out, we find in most cases the person posting either never replies, refuses to get involved, or is unable to provide evidence. If that happens, we have no way to prove their comments so the post is removed. Likewise, often the language used uses extremely emotive words such as "con" "scam" "cowboy" etc. These instantly make defending the comment much more difficult, so we encourage posts to keep the comments factual and free from words that instantly bias a post.

It's worth remembering that anyone can register and post on this forum, and their motives are unknown. The only people in danger of potentially having to pay huge legal costs is us, so without proof we cannot fight their corner.

Much of the work my team do goes largely unseen by the users. We spend an inordinate amount of time with our in-house lawyer investigating comments that people never substantiate when the crunch comes. However, when someone is prepared to back their comments and provide proof, our consumer champion ethos kicks in and we do our best to highlight the problem and back our user.

Outpost

MSE_Forum_Manager wrote: »

If that happens, we have no way to prove their comments so the post is removed.

In light of this perhaps your team should consider adding some sort of additional information to the site's rules and regulations, or a message shown at the sign up stage that any complaints about a given company that are not backed up by evidence are liable to be removed should that company lodge a protest.

It would also be helpful to know what sort of evidence MSE would require in order to refuse a given company's instruction to remove a thread and what form this evidence would take.

I'll admit to finding it a little uncomfortable that any complaint I wish to air amongst my fellow MSE members in order to get advice can be so easily removed by that company if they contact the forum team and instruct them to delete or edit a particular thread, particularly with regards to essentially 'unprovable' complaints such as those regarding customer service or in more serious cases verbal or racial abuse by staff.

If I am unable to offer some sort of concrete evidence of a particular incident then a company I am experiencing an issue with is therefore able to instruct MSE to remove my statements and MSE will comply.

I can sympathise with the stance of the Forum Team but surely forum members being able to air issues with companies and receive advice on how to resolve them from their fellows is one of the most important facilities that MSE provides?

This leaves a bad taste in my mouth to be honest.

Former_MSE_Forum_Manager

Outpost wrote: »

If I am unable to offer some sort of concrete evidence of a particular incident then a company I am experiencing an issue with is therefore able to instruct MSE to remove my statements and MSE will comply.

I can sympathise with the stance of the Forum Team but surely forum members being able to air issues with companies and receive advice on how to resolve them from their fellows is one of the most important facilities that MSE provides?

This leaves a bad taste in my mouth to be honest.

This is the law, however. If we get as far as court, the court will ask for the same. We are governed by the same laws of the land, and take steps to ensure we do not have to fight costly legal battles with no footing. This isn't "free speech", and the man at the top left of the site has to fund all legal challenges. We have to pick our battles carefully.

We do, however, leave a lot up. Our in house legal advisor spends a lot of time advising us on issues and we take a decision accordingly. Obviously to the forum, if a post remains up, you may never be aware that we've spent a lot of time, energy and cost actually maintaining the status quo on behalf our our readership.

I'm afraid I can't help with the taste that leaves you with; we try our best on behalf of our users whilst operating with the law.

Outpost

MSE_Forum_Manager wrote: »

I'm afraid I can't help with the taste that leaves you with.

The sarcasm is unnecessary.

I appreciate that you may find the subject emotive but you nonetheless represent an organisation of which I am a member and that sort of 'talking down' to a member is needless.

Former_MSE_Forum_Manager

Outpost wrote: »

The sarcasm is unnecessary.

I appreciate that you may find the subject emotive but you nonetheless represent an organisation of which I am a member and that sort of 'talking down' to a member is needless.

It wasn't sarcasm, I genuinely can't help with your view (was merely referencing your own words) on how we apply UK law to our work procedures.

As an aside, your comments about making the the user more aware of their responsibilities during signup is interesting. I will chat to our team about that and review what we say - it may be worth a looking at our messages during signup to clarify what we expect of our users and how they can comment in a way that gives us the best chance of backing them.

Outpost

MSE_Forum_Manager wrote: »

It wasn't sarcasm, I genuinely can't help with your view (was merely referencing your own words) on how we apply UK law to our work procedures.

You were being sarcastic, as you well know, and it was unnecessary.

Former_MSE_Forum_Manager

Outpost wrote: »

You were being sarcastic, as you well know, and it was unnecessary.

Ok, well I respect your opinion and doubt responding further will convince you otherwise, so let's leave it there.

Outpost

MSE_Forum_Manager wrote: »

Ok, well I respect your opinion and doubt responding further will convince you otherwise, so let's leave it there.

As you wish. Always a good idea to respond to a person as you would like them to respond to you even if you disagree with them, as I endeavoured to do with your post even though I found the content a little uncomfortable.

MSE_Martin

Just to follow up the above.

Don't get the idea all it takes is one legal letter and a post comes down. THis is a matter of individual judgement though, often if it looks like a systemic issue that has widespread consumer impact we move it to the editorial team to look at as well.

Yet if its a one-post person ranting about a company's treatment, calling names, with no evidence who won't respond to even basic questions - and we have a solicitors letter demanding action we are in a very difficult position.

Please note we have an in-house lawyer who's primary role is defending the forum against spurious (many) actions by companies and defending our consumers interest. We err on the side of defending consumers at all points. Yet to ask us (ie me) to risk being sued due to a nasty comment about a company we've never heard of on an issue we don't know about by someone who remains anonymous and won't answer any questions to substantiate it - is if I'm honest a little too much.

You also ask

"If I am unable to offer some sort of concrete evidence of a particular incident then a company I am experiencing an issue with is therefore able to instruct MSE to remove my statements and MSE will comply."

No not at all - we on many occassions have fought to get it resolved. Yet everything is a matter of judgement. This is a free forum, but we have very grown up lawyers letters flung all the time and spend £100,000s on legal bills to defend the forum each year. Its easy to say "don't take my comment down" but we have to take a balanced view and a judgement call on a case by case basis - which is why I can't offer any absolutes.

However please be assured we always look to the first role of protecting legitimate consumer comment (it is for this reason that within the discussion boards we put much less resource, so we can focus on the things that count, ie consumer issues).